Dr. Constance Carroll: The incredible impact of community colleges
Hello, Grant.
Grant Oliphant:Hi, Crystal. Welcome to Stop and Talk.
Crystal Page:I'm thrilled to be here because doctor Constance Carroll is on the podcast today.
Grant Oliphant:I share your enthusiasm. Constance is an extraordinary individual, and this is gonna be a fun conversation.
Crystal Page:She's kinda not to fangirl it too much, but she's kind of a shero of mine and that, like, at the age of 31, she was one of the youngest chancellors in history in the history of the United States. You know? But, also, she is so witty, and she'll just, like, burn you with a joke, and it's funny. She's just amazing.
Grant Oliphant:So yeah. She is. And she was, at the time when she became chancellor, the youngest black woman in the United States to play that role, and she does not ever come across in conversation with her like someone who wears on her sleeve that she has accomplished so much. She's incredibly humble, and yet she's a very important person in San Diego, and actually in the in the history of education in our country. She was president of Saddleback College in Orange County, president of Indian Valley Colleges in Marin County, where she also spent a year as interim chancellor of the Marin Community College District.
Grant Oliphant:For 11 years, she served as president of San Diego Mesa College, and then served as the college district's chancellor from 2004 to 2021. And I thought it was important to mention that because that's an extraordinary track record of accomplishment from a very young age, and it gave her a a perspective on what's needed in American higher education that I think is really important for today, particularly around workforce.
Crystal Page:I 100% agree, and I was actually just at the Peter Seidler life celebration of life, and Constance was actually asked to speak at that event. And she shared this story of brainstorming this, college promise for students that Peter was actually the 1st major funder of. So it's clear, like, she's relational, she's collaborative, and brings about big things for the the good of community college students.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah. I think this is the extraordinary thing about her, and, you know, you find this often with people like her that they they go on contributing in in myriad ways, even when they, quote, unquote, supposedly retire. And you'll hear that that, Constance is could hardly, by any definition, be considered retired. She is, even now, president of the California Community College Baccalaureate Association, which is a nonprofit, associated with the goal of supporting and expanding 4 year degrees at the state's community colleges. She just keeps on giving, and her her talk at Peter Seidler's memorial and Peter, by the way, for anybody who doesn't know, was the recently deceased and much revered owner of the San Diego Padres.
Grant Oliphant:The the reason she was asked to speak there was she had she engaged with community in a really deep and meaningful way, and she loved San diego loves San Diego, and San Diego loved her back. And and she talked a little bit about that.
Crystal Page:And, also, just to be a little bit silly, I always hear that Constance knows Lady Gaga. How does she know Lady Gaga?
Grant Oliphant:Yeah. Poor Constance. She must get tired of being asked this question, but you would never know it from the way calm way she answers it. Yeah. So she she has a long term association with, helping presidents understand issues related to the arts and humanity.
Grant Oliphant:She's on president Obama's National Endowment for the Humanities Committee, and more recently, she was appointed, to the president's committee on the arts and humanities by president Biden. Lady Gaga co chairs that committee. That's how she knows her, and what she shares with us is that Lady Gaga is quite serious and studious about the responsibilities of that committee and her role on it.
Crystal Page:And she prefers to be called Stephanie is what I'm sure in that context. Yeah. Yeah. So, basically, what you're saying is Constance is a big deal in education, arts, and culture.
Grant Oliphant:I am. Constance is, actually huge deal. Also just a really nice and interesting and thoughtful human being. You know? There is a there is a quality in America today that we desperately need more of, and it's, it's that quality of being able to talk about anything and reason your way through and think about what's good for other people, without imposing your own beliefs.
Grant Oliphant:And she has that capacity. You'll hear it in her voice. I I'm I'm really eager to share this interview. Let's get to it.
Crystal Page:Here we go.
Grant Oliphant:Constance Carroll, I am so delighted to have you on the program. Thank you for being here.
Constance Carroll:Well, thank you. It's my pleasure.
Grant Oliphant:You know, I I first met you, I think, at a a meeting I was invited to, and it was a group of about 15 people talking about issues important to the region, and what everybody thought needed to happen, and I what I remember about that conversation is mostly just general impressions, but I remember you because you sat quietly through the whole meeting, and then asked the zinger question that went right to the heart of the of the issue every was everyone was talking about, and I thought, I have got to meet this person. You and I, as it turns out, have in common Yes. We do. When it comes to Pittsburgh. Yes.
Grant Oliphant:So I wanna start there Alright. If we can. Tell me a little bit about, how you how you lived in Pittsburgh and then how you came to San Diego.
Constance Carroll:Well, I was in Pittsburgh as an undergraduate student, first at Duquesne University, and then I did my master's and PhD at the University of Pittsburgh. So, I'm very familiar with the city. I lived in Squirrel Hill and, enjoyed it. It surprised me, because I had not anticipated, what a cultural, mecca it really was. And I loved the symphony.
Constance Carroll:I loved the, the art museums. I loved everything about Pittsburgh. And, it labors under the the notion that it is not, a a cultural culturally rich city and it really is. And so, it's one of the, I think, greatest cities, in the United States. I really loved it.
Grant Oliphant:And since moving from Pittsburgh to San Diego is also my story, although decades apart in terms of when we you wised up earlier in terms of making the move, but I'm gonna get in trouble for that with my Pittsburgh friends. But when you, you've made the same move, were there any lessons you you learned in making that move and coming to San Diego?
Constance Carroll:Well, I didn't come to San Diego from Pittsburgh.
Grant Oliphant:No.
Constance Carroll:I I, I had a circuitous path, which went through the University of Southern Maine first, then to, Northern California, Central California, and then, to San Diego. Yes.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah. Well, still, leaving out all that middle stuff, were there any were when you think back on your experience there to here, were there any takeaways for you?
Constance Carroll:Yes. The the surprise for me in coming to San Diego was how informal it is. Not only, in general terms but, politically, everything is sort of, informal and operates on a personal level. Whereas in Pittsburgh, my impression was that everything was quite formal. The the biggest shock for me, in coming to Southern California was being called by my first name.
Constance Carroll:Mhmm. Everyone, uses that whereas, in the east, as as you know, Grant, everyone is much more formal. Right. It's,
Grant Oliphant:You would have been doctor Carroll wherever
Constance Carroll:Doctor Carroll or Dean Carroll or President Carroll or whatever, but never they they rushed to the first name. So, that and, and hugging. It's a huggy place.
Grant Oliphant:I love that. Yeah. So, you know, I you had, when you when you left that community, you were a student of the classics. Yes. Kind of traditionally schooled in that.
Grant Oliphant:You had a PhD, and and, some would have thought you were destined therefore to teach classics for the rest of your life. Yes. You took a very different path.
Constance Carroll:Yes.
Grant Oliphant:And you got drawn into the community college world, the continuing education world, and and we're gonna spend a lot of time on that while we talk because it's, I think important in this age of challenged workforce and young people facing decisions about what to do with their lives for us to, I think, to, spend some time on that. But how did you make that transition? What was it that drew you into that kind of work?
Constance Carroll:Well, as I like to tell people, I am a classicist, and that's why I went into administration. Fair.
Grant Oliphant:Okay. That's fair. Yeah.
Constance Carroll:There, because it, there wasn't there were not many opportunities, to work in the classics, as you may know. Throughout the United States and the world, people have been cutting back, on programs like this. And so in order to stay in education and close to my field, I I did went I did go into, administration. And and I'm I'm glad I did in many ways because I found, a a different way of helping people.
Constance Carroll:My, original plan had been to, be a professor and teach students and do research. That did not work out even though occasionally I still teach, but, I found another way of helping people in in some more significant ways, and, by, paving, pathways for them to, make, make achievements and the like. So I I don't regret it but, it it is not the path that I had originally envisioned for myself.
Grant Oliphant:It is, it is extraordinary when, when I look at your career, how early you were successful in terms of that, in terms of your career progression. You became a college president at a very young age. You, then followed through a sequence of presidencies and leadership positions all the way through to today when after having headed San Diego's Community College System, you, went in allegedly retired, and then and then, which you did very badly, by the way
Constance Carroll:Yes.
Grant Oliphant:And then, to, you're currently serving on a presidential commission on the arts and looking at the deep issues about the role of culture and art in our society for the White House. Did you have any hint of this when you were younger that this is obviously, administration wasn't the path that you wanted to follow initially, but did were you were you always craving to be in leadership roles?
Constance Carroll:No. I never was. I, this this was, accidental, serendipitously, arranged by a sequence of events that were very fortunate, for me. However, I will say that had I been a professor or had I been what I really wanted to be, which was an architect early on, I would have not have had some of the, opportunities that, opened up for me particularly with the, presidential commissions and, the work, that I do, statewide and nationally. So there there's always a silver lining, if one lives, one's life fully.
Constance Carroll:And, I'm very pleased with the way things have worked out, but but they were not this is not what I had anticipated. When I was younger, I was, enthralled with playing the guitar and singing every song that Joan Baez or a Buffy Sainte Marie ever ever, wrote. And, I I was a a free spirit. And so, now I find myself in a different, in a different role.
Grant Oliphant:So When, one of the one of the ways in which you failed at retirement, by the way, was to was to be in involved with the California Community College Baccalaureate Association
Constance Carroll:Yes.
Grant Oliphant:And you're still working with them today. And I'm I'm curious why after retirement you decided to take on yet another round of work, and and can you just say a little bit more about what you're doing there?
Constance Carroll:Yes. Well, when I, left the University of Pittsburgh and the University of Southern Maine, I discovered community colleges and, found that they were remarkable institutions, institutions that really focused on the student, focused on community, focused on, things that really made a difference, for, for people. And, along the way, I discovered that many states, in the union, were offering were allowing their community colleges to offer bachelor's degrees in fields where the bachelor's degree is now required, but where universities weren't really, offering, those programs. And so while I was still chancellor, I became involved in a bill that was sponsored by, senator Marty Block, who, had been president of the board of trustees of the San Diego Community College District to establish a pilot program, for community colleges to offer the bachelor's degree. And, we worked very, very hard on that and, the bill passed in, 2014, allowing 15 community colleges in California to offer bachelor's degrees very successfully.
Constance Carroll:Then there, it was clear that California could do much, much more than just 15 degrees. And so I continued to work with this effort. And when I retired, I founded the, California Community College Baccalaureate Association so that I could spend my time focused on exactly this. And and that's what I've been doing. We now are up to, we had another bill that passed in 2021, authored by, assembly member member Jose Medina.
Constance Carroll:And, under that bill, all community colleges in California have the opportunity to offer, bachelor's degrees, but only in workforce fields and only where there is no duplication with what the 4 year, public universities are offering. And so with that bill, we are now up to, in California, 39, community college bachelor's degrees and with many more in the pipeline. And so this is important work.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah.
Constance Carroll:It's work that, that changes, students' lives. It gives them a wonderful entree into gainful employment. It benefits communities by providing, workers for fields that have a great deal of unmet need. And, it's a wonderful, wonderful we call it a movement because it is. We now are up to, 25 states in the union that do this and I'm very, very proud that through our efforts that California has joined this, this group.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah. Well, it's, yet another tribute to your leadership, and I I tease you about being bad at retirement, but I am I'm also in awe of what you're managing to accomplish, through your your continuing dedication to to furthering the mission of your of your career. I wanna come back to that in a moment, but first, I wanna help our listeners understand maybe a little bit more about why you do this. And going back to your youth, does this work ethic and commitment to this type of work come from anything around your parents or your faith?
Constance Carroll:Oh, absolutely. Particularly, my mother was a remarkable woman. Her name was doctor Rebecca Carroll, And, she, had quite a, a trajectory. Because when she graduated from Morgan State College, and was ready to go to a graduate school, she was rejected by the University of Maryland, because the University of Maryland at the time was still struggling with desegregation Mhmm. And, refused to admit any African American students, whether they refused to admit any qualified African American students.
Constance Carroll:And after a tremendous court battle and upheaval, the decision in Maryland was that the University of Maryland bore responsibility for these students, in this way. They had to provide financially for them to attend, higher education, but were not required to accept them, into the College Park campus or any campus of the University of Maryland.
Grant Oliphant:Oh, wow.
Constance Carroll:So my mother was, fortunate in that, she was paid by the University of Maryland, to attend the University of Chicago Mhmm. Which, which was a boon because it's not a university she could ever have hoped to afford.
Constance Carroll:But what what a sad, sad commentary on this country that it's better to spend, enormous amounts of money to educate people elsewhere.
Grant Oliphant:Mhmm.
Constance Carroll:And so, from that point on, she determined that she was going to get an education from the University of Maryland. So in the sixties, she, enrolled in a program, at College Park, which was possible then after all of the turmoil, and became the first African American woman to earn a doctorate a doctorate from the University of Maryland. And she was an inspiration to me, in terms of, showing that, you can you can prevail if you are tenacious and if you have a strong vision and if you never ever give up. And so, that her her her style, of life and her her tenacity and perseverance were impactful for me. And, and so the she she was really the the person who influenced me the most in that regard.
Grant Oliphant:I don't think I I knew that story about your mother, but thank you for sharing it, and in some ways it's the perfect frame for understanding the career that you then embarked upon, and why you would would spend that career working with community colleges in the way that you have. Can you say a little bit more for our listeners about the challenges that young people in today's, work workforce face and why community colleges are important today?
Constance Carroll:Well, the the the first the first challenge that young people face is financial. Mhmm. Universities are very, very costly. And the private universities particularly, they're excellent if if one can afford them. But it's, to me, tragic to see, thousands of students graduating from prestigious institutions settled with unconscionable levels of debt Mhmm.
Constance Carroll:When they could have the same quality education by going to a community college first for the freshman and sophomore years where it's much, more, cost effective for them, where they have full professors teaching them high quality, education and, in most cases, guaranteed transfer then to the universities of their of their choice. So community colleges, provide that. They also provide workforce training, that is of great importance, in our, in our culture, because, job most jobs, today, require more than a college, more than a, high school diploma, and not always as much as a bachelor's degree. Mhmm. And so community colleges fill that gap as well, with the exception that now, many of the same fields are moving toward bachelor's degree, requirements instead of associate degree requirements.
Constance Carroll:Just as universities are migrating more toward master's degrees and doctoral degrees, there's a the great, inflation of, of education has been underway for for some time. But the role of community colleges is under underestimated, understated, and Mhmm. Unknown by many people. And it's, a great way for people to, to begin their educational careers.
Grant Oliphant:You met so many students during the years that you were chancellor and, and involved in the community college system. Are there are there still folks who stand out to you today that you met along the way?
Constance Carroll:Yes. Some that I met along the way and many that I met after the fact. Mhmm. For example, in San Diego, 2 of the the great graduates, from our community colleges in the San Diego Community College District, whom we, often reference are, Jim Sinegal, who founded, Costco, who found himself at San Diego City College, and then the wonderful actress, Annette Bening Mhmm. Who is a graduate of Mesa College.
Constance Carroll:And she has, gone out of her way to support the efforts of, of Mesa College and, the San Diego District, in supporting programs to provide free education for students and otherwise. And she has a personal policy of whenever she's interviewed of mentioning Mesa College because she saw it as, as a life changing, life changing experience for her. So, you know, we we meet people like this all the time. There are other, other people as as well in who have graduated from other colleges. The the the the trouble, with community colleges, grant is that many people, recognize the 4 year institutions from which people have graduated, but not the community colleges.
Constance Carroll:And when one considers that something like 2 thirds of the students who graduate from the Cal State University System are community college transfer students.
Grant Oliphant:That high.
Constance Carroll:Yes. And 1 third, of the graduates of the University of California are community college transfer students. Then you can see the overwhelming impact that these colleges have. It's unfortunate that it's an invisible, impact to many people.
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Constance Carroll:But, they they play such an important role, in, in the nation and in our state.
Grant Oliphant:You know, I'm I'm I'm putting some of these pieces together, and if if you in the community college system can educate a Jim Senegal and an Annette Benning, and you can account for 2 thirds of the students graduating ultimately from the Cal State System or or 1 third from the UC System, and you can educate them for a fraction of the cost of those systems. You can see why private colleges would be nervous about the expansion of community colleges Oh, yes. Into the baccalaureate space. You can also see why society ultimately shouldn't care if what we're worried about is the kids and the success of the kids. But how do you help the the people who are scared about the expanding role of community colleges get comfortable with it?
Constance Carroll:Through what we do best, which is education. Mhmm. We have a new bill in right now, which is requiring a great deal of education, quote, unquote, from our, detractors and, opponents. The, this is not a zero sum game.
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Constance Carroll:Right. And, educators need to understand that. If, if a public university is not offering a bachelor's degree
Grant Oliphant:Mhmm.
Constance Carroll:In a field that is required now for, employment, What why should it matter whether or not a community college enters that niche?
Grant Oliphant:Mhmm.
Constance Carroll:You know, the decisions made in education should be about need, student need. And in workforce education, they should be about labor opportunities and unmet need. They should not be about turf Mhmm. And, and who's in charge of what. We already have, worked to to avoid duplication but, let me give you, an example.
Constance Carroll:Mesa College was the 1st community college in, California to offer a bachelor's degree. That degree is in health information management, which is the digitization of, of, health records, which is something that the Affordable Care Act and others, require. That degree, health information management, before Mesa offered it and before Shasta College offered it the same degree, there was only one institution in the whole state of California, only one that offered that degree and that's point that's, Loma Linda University. Mhmm. So, should we then say that, well, because one institution in the state is offering a degree that offers tremendous opportunities in, workforce and employment that no one else should offer it, and the my answer would be no.
Constance Carroll:One of the things I've appreciated with the University of California is how supportive they have been of of of, community colleges moving in this direction. So, from my standpoint, this is a win win proposition. It's not a zero sum. It's not a competition. It's all about 2 things, students what students need, and it's about local communities and what local communities need and can benefit from.
Constance Carroll:And if you use those two issues as your, points of, of departure, then everything falls neatly into place.
Grant Oliphant:A further illustration of that is I think I have this right that, there's a senate bill now that would allow community colleges also to pilot a program for a bachelor's of science in nursing.
Constance Carroll:Yes.
Grant Oliphant:And in that case, although there are, institutions that already offer that degree, there is a critical shortage of nurses, and it's affecting the entire health care system. So how do you make the case in in that situation?
Constance Carroll:Yes. It's a excellent question, Grant. The, the bill that, you mentioned is Senate Bill 895. The author is, senator Richard Roth from Riverside. As as you recall from earlier in our conversation, I noted that, one of the agreements we had was that the community colleges would not duplicate
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Constance Carroll:Any bills that, any programs that the, at the baccalaureate level that the university public universities were offering. This would be a departure from that. Mhmm. And, my organization, the Community College League of California and others feel that the, shortage of nurses is so severe now Mhmm. And so, hurtful to the health, and well-being of, of the residents of our, communities that we need to do something.
Constance Carroll:Mhmm. Now community colleges have, for years, offered associate degree, level nursing and that has always been the, requirement for the, register for for being a registered nurse, but that has changed too. That has now migrated to the bachelor's level. Mhmm. And here's the problem, Grant.
Constance Carroll:Here's the problem. Last year, for example, the, the public institutions, public, universities were only able to accept 47% 47% of the, associate degree nursing students who graduated and were eligible. What happened to the rest of them? The rest either left the state or they went into private institutions, in order to, become, bachelor's degree nurses. Ask yourself, is this good state policy?
Constance Carroll:I would say, no. It is not. The the the nursing shortage is is so severe, that we all need to join forces in order to meet it. And if community colleges, can join, forces with the 4 year institutions and, in this case, the private institutions, in order to end the shortage, then that's what we should do. To me, that's an ethical, imperative.
Constance Carroll:And so our bill is out and the, the knives are out at at the same time. But we're hopeful because, senator Roth has the wisdom of starting as a at a, as a pilot program, which is how we began before that people will learn from the pilot. The pilot will be evaluated by the legislative analyst office as the previous one was, and we hope that then we will be able to move forward with, expanding the opportunities in a few years.
Grant Oliphant:What I what I hear you describing as you're talking about it is a system of education, that in which the community college system adds to the flexibility and agility and resilience of the overall educational system in California. And seen that way, it becomes a lot harder to argue against a a system that is clearly in demand and where there is clear student need. Yes. Has the need for it grown since the pandemic?
Constance Carroll:Well, first, it fell. Mhmm. As you, you and the listeners probably have known or read, community college enrollments and university enrollments took a tremendous dive, during the pandemic. But now that we're coming out of it, the, the need has grown because the interest in, the workforce has grown. And as, people, begin to pursue new careers and the like, the demand has has increased, just exponentially
Grant Oliphant:Mhmm.
Constance Carroll:Since the pandemic. And so this is a time to educate America. And the best way to educate America is to do so practically. And the most practical way to educate America is through the community colleges.
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Constance Carroll:So that that's where we find ourselves, now.
Constance Carroll:Constance, how do we get, as a society, get past some of the old ideas around education and educational attainment that get in our way? And I'm thinking, I mean you know them better than I do, but I'm thinking about, the received wisdom wisdom that has existed in this society for 50 years now probably that everybody needs a bachelor's degree, that to be that's the the hallmark of success in our society. Or the flip side, version of that, usually said by very wealthy people about other people's children, that not everybody needs a bachelor's degree. How do we how do we come to understand that there are systems that can serve multiple levels of education, and that we need all of them, and it's okay to be successful at in in any one of them? That's a very different conversation than we've had for decades.
Grant Oliphant:How do we break through to that?
Constance Carroll:Well, the the the first way is to stop thinking of it as a one one size fits all, proposition. Everybody does not need a bachelor's degree, but everybody does need some level of college. That's just, in order to be a a gainful member of society. The the, emergence of, the sort of computer age has changed a great deal so people, need, further instruction than they could possibly get in high school. The question is, based upon what they want to do specifically, what kind of program they need.
Constance Carroll:If, many people, can, achieve, or fulfill their their goals through apprenticeships, and, that has become a very popular way of of going about things for some people. Other people, want certificates of, of completion for various types of programs. Others want an associate degree, such as in in nursing or some of these other programs, and other people will require a bachelor's degree. If you want to be a nurse in California, you need a bachelor's degree now. And there are many other programs, like that.
Constance Carroll:And, so it's a matter of of deconstructing the the, the programs themselves to see who needs a bachelor's degree, who needs an associate degree, who needs an apprenticeship, and the like, and to, be very specific in terms of how those students, seek, seek their training.
Grant Oliphant:I wanna talk for a moment about the the work you're doing in the arts, and it's fun to talk about the presidential commission that you're on that is headed, by or co led by Lady Gaga. And, and yet your descriptions of that panel are descriptions of that panel are that it's a very serious panel doing very serious work, and and that sounds to as though it's true of everybody on there. Why is this important to you, and what are you what are you, hoping to accomplish through that presidential commission?
Constance Carroll:Well, there are actually 2, commissions. The my first presidential appointment was by, president Obama to serve on the National Humanities Council, which is affiliated with the National Endowment For the Humanities, which is, basically, resembles foundation work. We receive grants and grant proposals and fund them. The new commission is interesting because it was founded in, 1982 by Ronald Reagan who was concerned when he was president, who was concerned that, the arts particularly, but also the humanities did not receive the level of support in America that they should.
Constance Carroll:And America is, is remiss in supporting its, its cultural agencies as I think we all know. The the, the commission, resigned and, the commissioners resigned in mass in 2017 in protest of a previous president's policies. And, president Biden reactivated, the the group in, just a year ago. And so, the, the first lady, Jill Biden, is the titular, chair, and, Lady Gaga and Bruce Cohen are the, are the co chairs, actual co chairs of the commission. What we do is talk about how to provide additional support for the arts and humanities through, making sure that the agencies involved are work more closely together, such as the Library of Congress, the Smithsonian, the National Endowment For the Arts, the National Endowment For the Humanities, and others.
Constance Carroll:We will also be exploring fundraising for the arts. And, and then we will be, advising and are advising the president on policies. Policies pertaining to how the, administration, since we are a president's committee, how the, to advise the president on addressing such things as the rise of antisemitism in America, how to, address the fact that during the pandemic, theater attendance fell off by by over 20%, and how to support local artists and, and people involved in the humanities in many ways. So it's it's exciting work. It's meaningful work.
Constance Carroll:It's work I enjoy, and everyone on the committee, is very serious minded about it. The question I get most is what is Lady Gaga really like? And and the answer is she's an extremely intelligent, very, focused, very serious minded individual who takes all of this very, very seriously. So, it's it's exciting. I'm in my 1st year still and looking forward to year 2.
Grant Oliphant:Well, I I love the and and thank you for sharing that. And I I love the, fact that the White House is putting a focus on the arts in the way they are, and and I do think this is a propitious moment to be focusing on it and caring about it. What made it important to you? The Humanities Council, I can clearly understand the connection with education. How did you come to be so interested in the arts, would you say?
Constance Carroll:Well, I'm interested in the arts because I consider myself an, an artist. All my life, I have, been involved in painting and sculpture. And I think I mentioned earlier in the interview that I was considering architecture as a as a, potential field.
Grant Oliphant:And you also mentioned guitar playing.
Constance Carroll:Well, there my guitar playing is such that, I consider it an art but other people would not. They, and I'm involved in music. I love the opera, for example. I served on the opera board for many years. And, the arts are are are very important to me.
Constance Carroll:They're import important to our culture, in general.
Grant Oliphant:And as you know, the foundation is active in the area of the arts, and that's a a belief we also hold.
Constance Carroll:Yes.
Grant Oliphant:And I I I just wanna acknowledge, we're very lucky that you recently agreed to join our board, and we're we're grateful to have you as a, given your civic leadership to be, on our board.
Constance Carroll:Well, it's my pleasure. The Prebys Foundation is one of the best experiences that that that I have, had, in my life. It's a wonderful organization.
Grant Oliphant:We will try to keep it that way. You know, I as I'm as I'm as we're talking about that though, I'm thinking that recently, you gave a very touching, insightful talk at the memorial service for Peter Seidler, the former, owner and president of the of the San Diego Padres team. And you talked about your the role he played, in in bringing civic leadership to an issue you were working on. I'd love for you to share that story and then I wanna ask a follow-up question on
Constance Carroll:Sure. Peter Seidler was a extraordinary, man, very dedicated, to the community and very, very practical. His work with, homeless, is well known. He sometimes would be criticized for all of the homeless shelters that he put up immediately, with people immediately saying, well, it's more complex than that, Peter. And Peter would say, well, tonight these people need a place to to sleep.
Constance Carroll:Mhmm. Very practical. When I was talking with him once, we were discussing, community colleges and students, and the fact that most many students, could not afford shelter, could not afford food, and could not afford to go to college. And that we had started a program that was called the San Diego Promise, which would make the, students' attendance in the community college tuition free, and would also provide support for books and other other things that they might need, he immediately brightened up. And he said, this is a great idea.
Constance Carroll:And the next day, the very next day, he messengered over a check. We we had not even started the fundraising for the program, but he was the very first donor to the program. And not only was he the first very generous donor to the program, he, served on the, the promise committee, and provided a great deal of advice, including using the owner's speech, as a, at the owner's suite, excuse me, as a site for for fundraising that went on. Just a very devoted, dedicated person who liked the practical aspects of what we were doing, because he knew that students needed money, they needed support, they didn't need great schemes and plans. They they they had the same kind of practical needs that the unhoused population had.
Constance Carroll:And Peter was extraordinary. I I had tremendous, admiration for both, him and Sheila, his wife, who was also, dedicated, his brother Tom and others who were very devoted to our community.
Grant Oliphant:So my the reason well, I I I just appreciate that story on so many levels and appreciated you sharing it, but I I I also wonder a lot about how we preserve that commitment to community and to civic life that you're describing in that story. How do we have more people like, Peter Seidler? And are you know, how do we cultivate more of that in San Diego, even among people who aren't wealthy? And I know there's a lot of it. There's a lot of it in America.
Grant Oliphant:There's a lot of it in every community, and there's certainly a lot in San Diego I've you know, we get to see it all the time, And yet, in these very divided troubled times, it feels as though we need more. And, and and do you have any thoughts on how we do that?
Constance Carroll:Yes. I I think, one of the reasons I was so and am so excited to be part of the Prebys Foundation is that that is what the foundation does, in supporting people. The the recent grants for the community, emerging community leaders and others to bring people forward, to celebrate people, to show, role models and the like, is is really the way to go to go about that to to, and and to acquaint people with what the needs are. And this is where I think the media, has a great deal of challenges ahead of it. I, my church is in Southeast San Diego. And many of the people in my church were affected by the floods. Mhmm. In fact, Southeast San Diego was devastated in some areas. I think there were over 1200 people who, lost their homes.
Constance Carroll:But if you talk with people using the proverbial north of the eight freeway, the response was, what what flood are you talking about? Nobody knows about it. And, that's, the fault of, of, insufficient media coverage.
Grant Oliphant:Mhmm.
Constance Carroll:We need to find ways to spread the word about what people's needs are. And once people are aware of that, they they're very generous. I mean, Americans and San Diegans particularly are are massively generous people if they know, what the circumstances are and if it is made clear to them how they can benefit or how they can provide support. So, the Prebys Foundation celebrating people, getting the word out, these are the ways that we inspire people because I think people, in this region naturally want to be helpful.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah. Well, from your lips to God's ears. I, I I it certainly is consistent with what I've seen, and I think you're right that we just we don't, we don't tell these stories enough so that people can appreciate what others in the community are experiencing that is somewhat different from themselves.
Constance Carroll:Absolutely. And that that's always been the role of the humanities to, expose people to what the human experience actually is and to share the narratives and stories of, what that experience means for people. So
Grant Oliphant:That's that old classic student, and you're coming out again.
Constance Carroll:Absolutely.
Grant Oliphant:So let's finish up by let me just ask you, because you you speak about San Diego with great love and affection.
Constance Carroll:Oh, yes.
Grant Oliphant:And I I would just love to hear before we wrap up what you love about San Diego today, and what gives you
Crystal Page:hope. Yes.
Constance Carroll:I grew up, in Baltimore, Maryland in when it was completely segregated. Mhmm. And that was an experience that I will never forget. It was a very, defining experience to be excluded, from almost everything.
Grant Oliphant:Mhmm.
Constance Carroll:And it was a Baltimore was and to some extent is still a black white city.
Grant Oliphant:Mhmm.
Constance Carroll:And I was tired of that. When I came to San Diego, finally, I found that this is not a black or white city. This is black, white, brown, Asian, everything. And it's the, the true melting pot nature of San Diego that I think is attractive to me. As a result, it is a very, understanding and, gentle, place to live.
Constance Carroll:And, it has great potential still that it needs to realize because it's a young city in many ways. But it is a city that is, first and foremost, a multicultural environment. And it's that multiculturalism that, is the most attractive feature, for me to feel that I'm not on a side. Are you black or are you white? I feel like I'm I'm part of a of a holistic, cultural culturally rich, experience.
Constance Carroll:San Diego is maddening because it's, ill formed in some ways and and, unsophisticated in some ways, but it, is a city that tries to do what's right. And, when I go to the Martin Luther King, programs, there is no dominant race. It's everyone together whether whether you're Filipino or or Mexican or or, black or what whatever, your background, you're welcome and you celebrate what, Martin Luther King described as the beloved beloved community.
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Constance Carroll:And I think more than any organization in America that the city of San Diego, our region, is all about becoming a beloved community. And, that that caught my heart immediately, has my heart, and will always claim it, in the future.
Grant Oliphant:That is so eloquently said, and it is the perfect place for us to stop. Unfortunately, we've run out of time, but I would only add, and you're you're you're much too modest to say this, but I know of no better keeper of the concept of beloved community than you are or have been through your career.
Constance Carroll:Oh, thank
Grant Oliphant:you, great.
Grant Oliphant:I wanna say thank you. And thank you for the time today. This has been a lovely conversation.
Constance Carroll:Well, thank you very much.
Crystal Page:What a great interview. I mean, doctor Constance Carroll, I'll start there and acknowledge that she is an educated, hardworking gal. But I love that when you asked her about her family, because I got to sit in the room, she lit up And talked about her mother's love of education, how hardworking she was, and how that was really passed on to her. You know?
Crystal Page:I think we all have parents or mentors who shape who we are, but it's a good reminder that these amazing great people, you know, it's the origin of someone caring about them and inspiring them that makes the difference.
Grant Oliphant:You know, since we're talking about education, it makes sense that she would have embodied the importance of role models, you know, and the and the the inspiration she was given around that, clearly influenced her life, and she absolutely lights up when she talks about her and pride feels like the wrong word because Constance is, in many ways, the least prideful person despite being the most successful person that I, you know, and that I know. She has that gift, but but, yeah, there's the the pride of having come from a place where she had people who inspired her, and she followed a path that she's proud of.
Crystal Page:It's like, she's purpose filled. Right?
Grant Oliphant:Like Yes. That's the that's what I'm struggling with.
Crystal Page:She's inherited all these things, and she's giving it forward. You know?
Grant Oliphant:Yeah. Exactly. I, I I think that her so much of her story then flowing from that. In some ways, you know, looking back, it's a surprise if you don't know her the full story. Like, this this woman who is classically trained, literally classically trained, by all all accounts, should have probably followed a path into being a PhD in the classics and working in some top tier university somewhere, and probably would've had a very successful career in that and been top of her profession.
Grant Oliphant:She chose a different path. She chose this path of going into the community college system. And that begins to make more sense if you understand the through line of what inspired her, what she really was motivated by, what she cared about, which is at its root, how we educate young people to prepare them for success in life. Did you notice that?
Crystal Page:A 100%. I think she's opened doors for not just San Diegans, but people across the country and made degrees and educations more education more accessible to so many different folks. So I think you're right. I she would have been an amazing PhD teaching Latin somewhere or something, but I I I would bet that her impact was even bigger because she chose this different path.
Grant Oliphant:And, And, of course, she does have a PhD. We should
Crystal Page:Oh, yeah. To clarify.
Grant Oliphant:We are yeah. Just to clarify, we need to make it. But, you know, I think I think what, Constance in her quiet way, maybe it doesn't it it isn't obvious, but she's a warrior. She's pretty fierce in her fight for the right of young people to have an education that is accessible and right sized for them. So she did that when she was in her community college roles, and she fought to make those programs that that her, colleges provided relevant for the workforce so that her students would graduate with usable skills and right size to the circumstances so that, you know, if they if they needed a certification, if they needed you know, a a particular type of training, they would get it in their path to getting their associate's degree.
Grant Oliphant:And I I found that ex I find that extraordinary that she has just really always kept her eye on the ball of what, young people and not so young people need so that they can become equipped to find a place in today's economy.
Crystal Page:And I think to the the, triple plus ad there is that she's learning, like, hey. The community really still needs more health care workers. The community colleges can offer these services. Let's open the doors to it. Right?
Crystal Page:So I think she's pushing the boundaries of what's possible at the community college level so that we all have better health practitioners and mechanics and all the things that that we need here.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah. Well, I I think that was another takeaway for me. The the again, her focus is always on students and what they need, and therefore, what the market needs from them because they won't they won't find their path if the door is slammed in their face. So she's looking at, constantly mindful of what the market is in need of as well. And I think that's what's led her to this fight for the 4 year degrees.
Grant Oliphant:It's to that community colleges are uniquely affordable places, that can provide an fell an important demand in the in the world that we have today for certain types of training and certain type of skill preparation, that isn't being met today by the regular higher ed system. And she's trying to fill those gaps, which are gaps that hurt young people or people retraining for future jobs in the workforce. She's saying by providing these 4 year degrees, we can help meet, for example, the example you just gave, we can meet the crisis and the shortage of workforce in the health care arena by making it, more avail that training more available to more people.
Crystal Page:And I think what's great about that in a I know a lot of times we value collaboration and, of course, there's always healthy competition, but it doesn't take away from the UCs or the state schools. There's more than enough demand. There's more than enough students. Everything's full anyway. So why not make it possible for more youth and students of any age to have the opportunity to give more and learn more and provide more for their own families?
Grant Oliphant:Exactly. You know, you, you mentioned early on in our discussion about this, Peter Seidler. And I I think, you know, what I wanna come back to is Constance does or and has always done what you just said in terms of focusing on the end result, but she's done it in a way that we all really need to pay close attention to. She has fought for the things that she believes in. She's still fighting for the things that she believes in, but she's never unmindful of the rest of the community.
Grant Oliphant:And she's always thinking about how does her organization nest inside the system that she's part of, and how does that nest inside the larger system that is San Diego? And who are potential allies and fellow travelers who she can work with. There is, you know, in these, divided times where we see people always being cast as pro or con, or left or right, or whatever, Constance didn't get into that silliness. She got into how to build coalitions of people who were like minded and cared about the same things. And, you know, your sighting of Peter is a great example of that.
Grant Oliphant:It may seem unlikely that the owner of the San Diego Padres, late owner of the San Diego Padres, and this, woman titan of the community college world would somehow have found, common ground or common allegiance, but they did. And they did because there was that openness to the country, I think.
Crystal Page:Well and and I think, again, it comes back to that connection. Right? That value of, what matters celebration of life for the late, great owner of the Padres, they talked about how Peter would walk around and just have conversations with people on the street at night or, when he and Constance met. Right? They're in a room together just having this conversation.
Crystal Page:The next morning, she's got this check for a program she hasn't even started. Yeah.
Grant Oliphant:I love that.
Crystal Page:And what's amazing about both of these individuals, but particularly watching and wanting to model what Constance doctor Constance Carroll brings to the table is just focused on the outcome, but gentle and firm in their commitment to the work. And I just think it's something we can all be inspired by and continue to, learn from.
Grant Oliphant:Crystal, I think that is a great place to end the program today.
Crystal Page:Thank you so much, Grant.
Grant Oliphant:Thank you. This is a production of the Prebys Foundation, hosted by Grant Oliphant, and co hosted by Crystal Page. The program is co produced by Crystal Page and Adam Greenfield, and it's engineered by Adam Greenfield. Production assistance is provided by Tess Karesky. And our new theme song is by mister Lyrical Groove, a local San Diego artist.
Grant Oliphant:Download episodes at your favorite podcatcher or visit us at stop and talk podcast.org. If you like this show, and we really hope you do, the best way to support it is to share, subscribe, and review our podcast. Thank you for your support, your ideas, and most of all, for listening. This program has been recorded at the voice of San Diego
