Walking Shield: Building Capacity and Honoring Tribal Self-Determination
Hi Grant.
Grant Oliphant:Crystal, so good to be with you.
Crystal Page:Good to see you.
Grant Oliphant:This is a pleasure. We had an interview with Walking Shield. Do you want to say a little bit about what they do?
Crystal Page:Well, I mean, I know that they are committed to improving the lives of native communities across the country. And in particular, involves working with government, really building out capacity for those tribes.
Grant Oliphant:They really bridge the worlds, or try to, of the sovereign tribal nations and connecting them with philanthropy and with the military, as you said, government, and trying to open up pathways of opportunity and to get all of us to see differently what the opportunity should be for people on tribal lands. So we spoke with Doctor. John Castillo and Mariano Diaz, and we probably should just dive in and let them speak for themselves about the work, and then we'll come back and wrap up.
Crystal Page:Sounds good. Let's dive in.
Grant Oliphant:Right, Doctor John Castillo and Mariano Diaz, it is a delight to have you both here with me. Thank you for joining me.
Mariano Diaz:Thank you.
Dr. John Castillo:Yes. Thank you.
Grant Oliphant:Let's dive in by talking about, the mission of of Walking Shield, what it's about, and what brought you each to this work. And doctor Castillo, I'd like to start with you. How did Walking Shield come into being? What is its mission, and what drew you to it?
Dr. John Castillo:Oh, sure. Walking Shield, was approached. Phil Stevens, our founder Phil Walking Shield Stevens, our founder, was approached by his Jesuits from the Red from the Red Cloud Indian School, which is on Pioneer Indian Reservation in South Dakota to raise money to buy computers for the young people there. And then as he created that, these Jesuits said, why don't you he he is Oglala, so he's from that area, but he never been to Pine Ridge because he grew up in East LA. They asked him, why did you come to the reservation and see what it's like?
Dr. John Castillo:And he went to Pine Ridge, saw how poverty stricken it was, and still is to a certain extent, very sad. It changed his whole life. He came back. He talked to his family, sold his business, which was ultrasystems. He helped make the circuit board for the Minutemen missile program, so he became pretty wealthy and decided to go ahead and sell his business and lead Walk and Shield for many years until his retirement about twenty two years ago.
Dr. John Castillo:We were incorporated in 1986, so that has been how it started. Our mission is to improve the quality of life for our native communities on and off reservations, which we have been doing since 1986. We have a lot of services and programs, received a lot of both national and local awards for our work. We're a very small team where we're able to leverage large resources. So we've made fortunately as a group, as a team, we've made a big difference in Indian country.
Grant Oliphant:So I wanna just come back to the question for both of you to, answer, if you would, about how you came into this work and why it's important for you. So, doctor Castillo, why don't we start with you?
Dr. John Castillo:Sure. We got raised by our parents to be to assist and work with the community. So my sister was in the police department for thirty four years. My brother is a behavioral therapist in Arkansas. My little sister my little sister is a nurse.
Dr. John Castillo:So we're always community driven. And since we more or grew up in Orange County and Los Angeles, there's a lot of native people, particularly in Los Angeles. So we were able to connect with our other native groups. And so once I got my license, you know, in '16, I started going to powwows and hanging out with the other native people. And I ended up going to UCLA and graduating with my master's and ended up working at the Union Center in Los Angeles.
Dr. John Castillo:And then got promoted several times until I ended up at the Orange County Union Center back then. It was another union center. And then I became director there that incorporated both Los Angeles, Orange County, and part of Riverside in its service area. So I think of my parents who are biggest folks that influenced us, you know, to help our people.
Grant Oliphant:Nice. And Mariano, what about for you?
Mariano Diaz:Well, professionally, my background is in comprehensive community development, that I've done that about forty years total. And when I decided to leave National LISC, I really wanted to be more focused in my work, so I started my own consulting firm. And just to really be specific of who and why I would work in certain communities. A mutual friend introduced me to Doctor Castillo and Walking Shield as an organization.
Mariano Diaz:And I really felt it was professional and personal alignment of what I wanted to do. And now I've been with the organization seven years as a senior fellow.
Grant Oliphant:Fantastic. Well, thank you both for that background. I want to talk a little bit about giving some context to this conversation in terms of San Diego. It is often surprising to people that we have the highest number of tribes per capita in the country.
Mariano Diaz:Yes.
Grant Oliphant:That we also have the largest number of federally recognized tribes for a county in the country. And I'm curious what that, you know, when you think about what that means for San Diego, why is that important? Can you break that down for us a little bit?
Dr. John Castillo:So they they've been there for a long time, and, of course, many of them ended in on reservations that are very rural. You know, that you know, there's one reservation in San Diego nobody can live on. It's all mountains and stuff. So everybody's off reservation.
Dr. John Castillo:So it's a a lot of them have a lack of water, you know, which is a big issue in Indian country and throughout The United States and California, of course. So, yeah, those are a bit are fortunate, of course, you know, with their casinos, but not everybody has a casino. And I think about about half of them have some and the other half don't. And, of course, we work with the ones that have nothing basically where one of the reservations in San Diego, half that reservation doesn't even have electricity, you know. That's a you would think that'd be different in San Diego.
Dr. John Castillo:Right?
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Dr. John Castillo:Yeah. It's it's thought. But, yeah, that's a it's very it's a very strong community. And I think having those many tribes together, it's been a good thing. They have the Southern California Tribal Chairmen's Association, which has those 18 tribes and the tribes in Riverside and San Bernardino.
Dr. John Castillo:And so it's it's great work, and it's nice to see a lot of tribes together in one area. Mariano probably added some more because he's been working with us on these tribes.
Grant Oliphant:Mariano, you answer that or expand on that, could you also talk a little bit about why it matters that what it means when we use the term sovereign nation to refer to tribes?
Mariano Diaz:Oh, absolutely. Well, lot of it got started when I was at the San Diego Foundation. One of my core responsibilities was to make the foundation more relevant to the surrounding communities in the county and in the region. I became aware of the number of Native American tribes in the county and, more specifically, the border region and that it was a shared border. I mean, when you look at that, it became very obvious and natural in the movement of people that, you know, you would you would uncover these core facts. But what was surprising in that, you know, the Native American community was as the original people in this region of the country, you know, had a lot to add in terms of the flow of people, resources, and more importantly the concept of philanthropy development and community development overall. And there was one particular initiative that was spawned by a San Diego philanthropist about bringing the Olympics to the border region. And then the conversation was, well who should it include? And I then introduced to the foundation, well, you really should look at this more broadly in terms of the original people who are those that are already here, the larger tribes that were organized and eager to contribute contribute to the concept of economic development, you know, and shared resources. And that started a kind of a path for me in understanding the concept of sovereignty and asking the questions, well, why aren't we working more closely with Native American communities given the number of communities that we have here?
Mariano Diaz:That's not reflected in the grant making. It wasn't reflected in the convening of leadership. It wasn't reflected in any of the outreach strategies, not only by the foundation, but anybody else that we were talking to. You know, well, it's too difficult, you know, you know, we can't make grants to native communities. There was a lot of ignorance on why we couldn't structurally link with with these sovereign nations.
Mariano Diaz:It wasn't rocket science to figure out, well you're dealing with a sovereign nation. There's different structures. There was different organizational leadership elements and to say nothing of the absence of trust. You know these leaders have seen us come and go. We only go there when we want something to you know share data on health needs on communities and then the funding would arrive and they would never see any of it.
Mariano Diaz:So they they had justification to not wanna work with any of the leadership that was promising larger community development efforts.
Dr. John Castillo:Yeah. We have, treaties to the federal government.
Grant Oliphant:Sure.
Dr. John Castillo:That that's one of the reasons we have sovereign nations. And, you know, that's a a lot of that's deteriorated as far as the issue of sovereignty by when it Winston is the major Indian laws that were passed to take away some of our jurisdiction of how we are able to do with people that do stuff on the reservation. So a lot of that was taken away, so now we can control maybe traffic and some other minor stuff. It's called the Major Crimes Act. So sovereignty has been attacked, you know, for over two hundred and fifty years since it started, and it's kinda just inched away pieces of that as it went through.
Dr. John Castillo:And if you look at the federal social policy that's gone off for two hundred and fifty years, it's a get rid of the Indians. No. Let's help the Indians. No. This get rid so it's that pendulum that goes back and forth.
Grant Oliphant:Right. Right.
Dr. John Castillo:So, you know, it's been an interesting journey.
Grant Oliphant:Doctor Castillo, on that on that score, have Walking Shield has worked to try and increase the flow of federal money to to the to the tribes and to make more federal resources available for for what happens there. For example, you've tried to get Department of Defense money to to to engage with with infrastructure needs in the community. And and yet, as you just described, you're you're you're fighting a constant battle around the way in which these so called sovereign nations are treated by the federal government as it either embraces them or pulls away. And we certainly seem to be in a moment where that tension is coming surging to the fore again, which I wanna talk about a little bit. But I I would love for you to reflect for a moment on what it is like to try and attract more federal resources to the work of the sovereign nations and how you make that case after two hundred and fifty years of trying to make that case?
Dr. John Castillo:Yeah. Well, one of the biggest things is capacity building. Mhmm. These tribes don't have the staff, the person power, the skill set to go after federal grants.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah.
Dr. John Castillo:So you have you know, those larger tribes, you know, invest them. They have that the staff and the skill set to go after these federal grants. When We start talking about some of the smaller poor tribes poor tribes in San Diego. They don't have that capacity. And I'll give you an example.
Dr. John Castillo:I was just at a tribal summit up in Northern California an enterprise rancheria. And young lady a from Hoopa came up and was talking to the energy companies and the state funders about applying for dollars from them. And she pointed out there's a 109 reservations rancherias in California, and only 20 of them can apply for these funds that you have. And the reason why is, as I kind of mentioned right now, is these smaller tribes, the other 80 plus tribes that didn't have that cap they don't have the capacity to go after those dollars. They don't have the staff.
Dr. John Castillo:So one of the things that we work really hard is to build the capacities of these smaller, these rural tribes, to be able to go after those dollars and cents. We've been involved with the Department of Defense for since 1995, doing infrastructure and health care on reservations. We've had two or three other reservations that have a lot of benefits from the National Guard or the Army or the Navy Seabees or our friends from the Air Force. Again, building that capacity to make sure that you have all your T's crossed, your I's dotted because the military is very structured. It's very paper driven.
Dr. John Castillo:So we help them with the paperwork and getting ready to actually meet the requirements that these military components need as well as applying for federal resources that they haven't applied for in the past because of lack of assistance.
Grant Oliphant:I'd love to stay on that one for a second because I think it is a brilliant example of your success. And I'm and I wonder if you could share a story with us about how that has worked, where you have worked with the US military to bring resources to the table that otherwise communities might not be able to access. And I'm thinking the example I I sort of know myself is the cleanup of Saint Isabel. And I maybe that's the example you wanna talk about or not. But is there a story you can share with us to illustrate how how effective this has been?
Dr. John Castillo:Yeah. The I wanna give you the example with Mesa Grande. I don't if you've been to Mesa Grande. They're they're kind of in a in a pit. They're in a fire trap.
Dr. John Castillo:They have about 30 homes. Way on the bottom is this Blackstar Canyon and this is least a Sutherland Dam. So the roads are dirt. There's drop offs there. So we worked with the National Guard for two years.
Dr. John Castillo:They came in and brought about 40 troops to rebuild those roads to go into Sutherland Dam and make them safe and widen them so that people weren't, you know, actually going off the cliff, which is a good thing, of course. And we also did a lot of work on soil erosion, you know, rip wraps, covert type stuff to make roads last. And This is actually an effort that was unique in a way because we actually had an MOU with the County Of San Diego, The U. S. Forestry and with the Mesa Grande tribe.
Dr. John Castillo:So we are able to put together these three components for the benefit of each group. And the tribe, of course, had right away. And it is a scary road, really scary road. Took one of my friends, one of our colleagues, Marvin, you just heard a little earlier. We took him down the road.
Dr. John Castillo:And it is really scary. He is dark skinned. So we got down to the road, was really light. He got really light skinned. First question to the tribal secretary is there is another way out of this place?
Dr. John Castillo:Is how scary it is.
Grant Oliphant:An intimidating road.
Dr. John Castillo:It is intimidating. That is a big example of what can be done.
Grant Oliphant:And it is so fascinating to me given the complicated history of course between the US military and and, the tribes, and the sovereign nations. But you're making it work. That's actually why you're, one of the participants in the Preface Foundation's, bridge initiative, which is supporting nonprofits and, and and that are uniquely positioned to help communities build their capacity to access more resources and to assert more of their own leadership. Can you talk a little bit about this, both of you, how how you see yourselves helping communities to develop this capacity to talk on their own behalf, to advocate on their own behalf so that you're not perpetually having to do it for them.
Dr. John Castillo:We take a train to trainer type role to do exactly what he said, to build a capacity to get them at a level where they do not need us anymore, maybe just to call us up once in a while or just remind them, hey, by the way, IRT requested to do September 30. We have gotten many tribes to that point. It does take time because each tribe is different. It does take time. Am probably familiar with a lot of tribes go through changes in tribal government, tribal leadership.
Dr. John Castillo:Some have elections every two years or four years. There's one tribe in San Diego's election every year. That's for all the council people. So that makes it difficult. It's not staggered.
Dr. John Castillo:Yeah. So we work with tribal leadership. And that is the biggest thing. Think Santa Ysabel as you mentioned earlier is probably one of the ones that we have worked with for many years that have gone to a capacity where they are really good about writing grants. Are just now building their capacity to engage in the military programs that can provide additional support, infrastructure and healthcare.
Dr. John Castillo:There are more Native Americans in the military based on the population than any other minority in The United States. So you have a lot of Native Americans in the military. I knew that a long time ago but I was at the Pentagon meeting with one of the generals and he kind of mentioned that to me. And I go, yeah, you're right. And that's very true.
Dr. John Castillo:There's a lot of Indian people in the armed forces. So, yeah, we get to the train to trainer. I know Mariano can add more because we do these multi year plans that if it's okay, he can share about the multiyear plans that we work with.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah, Mariano, if you would.
Mariano Diaz:Sure. Absolutely. One of the things that you brought up, Grant, was the the notion of sovereignty. And when we talk about capacity building and leadership development as the nonprofit sector delivery system to increase organizational performance, whether it's health, education, whatever that might be. By literal definition, how you work with sovereign nations in leadership development and capacity building is that the notion of a nonprofit structure is very different.
Mariano Diaz:Many of the tribal nations are not set up as nonprofits. So you have to really understand the mechanisms of how financial resources could be delivered on on native country and specific tribes with the expectation that grant compliance, delivery, reporting is gonna be similar. And if you don't do that background, you're just gonna step in cement because there's just not that natural understanding of just philanthropy that's organized and why you would pursue grants. And if we look at native country, the delivery system for financial resources is federal grants and you have really specific departments that you have to understand and work with if you are going to be successful in securing a federal grant. And the requirements for the different departments that deliver USDA monies or Department of Defense contracting, whatever the opportunity might be, is that qualification for those grants requires a lot of readiness at the organizational level to even compete for the funding.
Mariano Diaz:Many of these contracts require land use plans, environmental impact studies, water delivery and management systems to even fill out the application. And so that's what John was pointing out. Our approach has to be in a collaborative fashion to work with our tribal partners where they are and without any judgment about what they need to be, how they need to be it. We don't even talk about leadership development because they're elected officials responsible for the development and well-being of all members. So their concept that kind of work is shaped by the federal delivery system that requires them to have set up committees of governance and community engagement, the kinds of things that is reported by the federal government in terms of use of its monies.
Mariano Diaz:And it's usually the larger foundations or tribes, they understand that and can have staff in place to actually collect information to submit an application. The organization, the tribes that we're working with are just not staffed to even fill out an application. And so the capacity building approach that we've taken is to develop multi year planning agendas that are health related so that the elected officials and their members determine what the needs of reservation are that is outside the federal funding box. So that when we look at the issues of infrastructure, why they don't have water, the questions that I've learned from John is to ask, well, what do you need water for? Well, to grow food, to drink, to deliver to the new housing.
Mariano Diaz:And these are very basic questions in terms of the planning. Well, if it's water, then how do we go from what you need to actually putting together the planning that allows you to decide what is that learning path to arrive at and what is the data that you need to then compete for funding. So that is a larger slice of what we deal with in the sense that you know many of our tribal leaders, know that agenda changes every two years they have an election. So we have to then start a lot of you have to start that cycle again. So our multi year plans that developed by Walking Shield helps to inform the newly elected council that comes in that the core issues are still water, land management, affordable housing, and those things shouldn't change every two years.
Mariano Diaz:So that allows Walking Shield to identify the planning, the funding source we want to apply for. We do the proposal writing if needed, to get them ready to submit a competitive application for funding and manage that grant if it's received to how to be compliance and perform the project to actually build the infrastructure within the time period that the federal government calls for.
Grant Oliphant:I think I I really appreciate that description because it it it nicely captures the complexity of the literal landscape that you're dealing with and that you are working to help be successful. I'm also mindful of how rich it is with ironies given the past experience you've had. And and so for example, I'm I, you know, I I I wasn't in the room, but I know from hearing from you and others afterward that there was this moment in a discussion among the bridge initiative cohort about what was happening on the national scene. And doctor Castillo, I think it might have been you who who said, you know, we've we've been dealing with this back and forth in terms of of support, non support with the federal government for two hundred and fifty years. It's not exactly new.
Grant Oliphant:And it's sort of set in perspective for everybody in the room that there's a lot of history here that you're you're working to overcome. At the same time, as you're trying to reflect that with integrity across the landscape of all the tribes that you work with, you are having to face the reality of a government that may decide or administration that may decide, at least has talked about taking away the special status of sovereign nations and of imperiling the nonprofit status of organizations that serve specific populations. You know, writ broadly, that gets dismissed in the whole DEI context, but this is really the part of the ancient foundational text of the founding of The United States Of America and and who was here before the country came to exist. And so how are you navigating that very complicated terrain and thinking about it in the context of the day to day work that you're doing with your with your the the tribal entities that you're working with on building capacity, which feels like absolutely essential work and almost impossible to think about in the context of a of an onslaught like I just described. So can you just talk about that for with us for a moment about how you're processing it?
Dr. John Castillo:Sure. We've already faced that in the nineteen fifties. There's a termination policy. The federal government instituted to terminate federal recognition of tribes. Unfortunately, we had to go to courts. You know a lot of the tribes had to go to courts and reinstate their federal recognition. But by terminating what you just said, these treaties or the relationship, no longer they were required to provide any federal funds. Right? So know, tribes that had a very good industry, say, in in timber no longer had that great industry or those dealing with salmon, you know, those that had developed economic development on the reservations. So those funding orders dried.
Dr. John Castillo:So but you're right. It's a challenge, you know, as far as nonprofits, you know, for us, for instance, is diversifying our our funding sources so that we're not dependent on the federal government. You know, it's a that's been some of the things Walkinshewlo for the last twenty years has, done quite a bit because we recognize the dilemma if you depend on one, financial source. In this case, unfortunately, our native people are depending on the federal government resources.
Grant Oliphant:Mariano, anything to add there?
Mariano Diaz:Oh, yeah. I mean, that is the is the key. And I think John pointed out to you, I mean, before the new federal administration, we've always been struggling with trying to bring organized philanthropy to understand that there are people in our backyard that are well positioned to work for a mutual and in benefiting all segments of our community. Part of what the discussions that we're having with our tribal leadership is something that they are now putting into play, is the concept of co management. That the availability of water, the protection of natural resources, the need for affordable housing, a lot of integrative possibilities with local governments that surround native reservations.
Mariano Diaz:And I'll point out that if you know some of our larger partners the majority of resources spent in quote community development is on litigation. Know suing over water rights, over sovereignty land rights, and winning now in the courts because of just how treaties have been enforced or not enforced. So leadership is now asking the question, well, we have a shortage of water and it's driven by climate change and, you know, moving from food production to vineyards because we all believe that everybody needs a better quality Merlot, you know, but the the fertilizer used to grow grapes is is polluting the commonality of the water source that farmers downstream use that's poisoning the fish.
Mariano Diaz:So the concept of co management on tribal lands is how to look at people, land, assets to then work with local government to say how do we approach this locally and jointly so that not only does it provide for all of us, but there's potential revenue sources to be developed. The Kurok tribe in terms of wildfires, you know, the move toward native management of land in terms of regular burns that counter the wildfire situations that we have.
Mariano Diaz:Well, they're training now local fire departments in those concepts, and they're now training local native youth to become firefighters, not only for the reservation, but local fire departments in a shared resource of how we avoid burning down the whole region. So the co management concept very, very important, gets us off the litigation path potentially, you know, because fish need water, and you need water for grapes. I mean, what is the
Grant Oliphant:Is is that is that is that possible? I'm sorry to interrupt, Mariano, but I I'm just curious. Is that it it makes all the sense in the world. But I'm wondering, does it make sense in or is it possible in the in the context of the federal environment that we're now that you now find yourselves operating in. You know, I'm I'm thinking about how, many of the projects that you've talked about over the years have had to do with clean energy and sustainability and comanagement of water is another beautiful example.
Grant Oliphant:And and and those, it would seem to me, are suddenly encountering a very hostile policy environment. Does it matter? Does do you forge ahead? How do you how do you think about how to how to to work on because it's a good idea what you're describing. I'm just curious how you continue to win on it in an environment where there's such hostility toward it.
Mariano Diaz:Well, I'll take a shot and then John can can add his perspective just of the leap from the leadership position. Yeah. But I think that that there's tremendous hope in that concept because failure to respond to our natural resources and their availability and use, I mean, that is a common factor that impacts us all. And the failure to do that is failure for everyone. And the most ironic, thing that I've learned in this work with Walking Shield is to when we reach out to environmental funders or programs that support environmental financing before this new administration, we could not get a meeting, which I thought was highly ironic ironic working with native people who originated, you know, the concept of mother nature and its protection and its what and its need.
Mariano Diaz:And what we were finding at the local level is that we weren't using the environmental language that would allow us an entry into, you know, a funding cycle, right? And then we came up against the ignorance of program officers not knowing that there were that many tribes in San Diego they don't drive out there, they don't go out there unless they're going to go to Julian to pick apples. I mean you know their limitation didn't include the regional understanding of who lives here. And if you really wanted to know about environmental protection and the importance of shared water and its usage, then let me introduce you. So that concept of co management really has the basis of an organizing principle that it allows our young people and those who care about these issues to then learn about how people are really practicing it and how the joint knowledge exchange is a tremendous value experientially to then depend against public policies that go against it.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah. John, what about you? I mean, I'd I'd there's so much in Mariano's answer that gets at the idea of power sharing and power building and the the fact that some of these challenges have existed for a long time as you've pointed out a number of times, and that, it still requires a set of solutions that will work regardless and the solutions kind of speak for themselves. So there's a lot there, but what do you see as the avenue of of of making these ideas prosper at a time when it seems like they're they're heading into stiff headwinds?
Dr. John Castillo:Well, one of the things is we've been around for thousands of years. So we've been around for a long, long time, and we're we're people think that this stuff has happened all all these years of genocide or for our native people that we'd be gone or you know, a lot of tribes are gone now or and and so forth, but still over 500 tribes left. And so we know after all this that we had to make the adjustments. We had to be strategic. We need to use resources that are available to us.
Dr. John Castillo:And one of the things we've learned is that we need to work together in a cohesive way there's always strength in numbers. You know? So we've learned that, you know, the San for instance, San Luis Rey, they they had to litigate for their rights to the San Luis Rey River. That was five tribes that worked together to get that right. You know?
Dr. John Castillo:Because that was their their treaty right, and they had to go to like Mariano said, a lot of these things had to go to litigation. So now they're working not just with their the tribes themselves, but with local government around there, you know, about this water resource. So that co management can work. It's not the most easiest thing to do. But we have to be strategic, find unique answers, and move forward.
Dr. John Castillo:We just we just can't give up. We've been here forever, you know, and so it's no time to give up. It's time to be strong and move forward.
Grant Oliphant:What I'm I'm curious, you know, picking up again on something that Mariano said. I am struck by I know this to be true that the that that oftentimes what you were dealing with in approaching philanthropy, let's set aside the federal government for a moment, was that the the sovereign the tribes were speaking one language and philanthropy had a different language. And and so, and the expectation was that if you get were to ask somebody for money, you had to speak their language. I think I think part of what you've tried to do even as you help organ as you help the the the folks you're working with become better at working the systems that exist, you're also trying to help the systems that exist better understand the language of the sovereign nations. And so and to stop being so expectant about having them conform to our model.
Grant Oliphant:Do you feel you've been successful in terms of that? Are you making progress?
Dr. John Castillo:We just had a just to give you an example. Yesterday, we just had a meeting up here with 10 foundations doing exactly what you just said, having them understand how we as indigenous people, you know, how we can draw from from, you know, their resources and how they can fit into our tribal structures. That's exactly a conversation we had yesterday about 10 foundations. So there's progress. I think having Mariano who has, like you said, forty years of experience in philanthropy, that really helps our tribes, especially the ones in San Diego we're working with to understand that language, whatever that language you want to call it, the tribal structures and trying to merge it some way so they have a shot in of learning in the Indian ways.
Dr. John Castillo:And and and we just with one of the groups, I asked him one of the tribal groups was actually Los Coyotes. I asked him, would you be interested if I can bring one of the foundations to your reservation? Because I think that's extremely important is that the foundation folks really see what's going on on their reservation. They can hear from me and Mariano and see some pictures and stuff, But it sure makes a difference when somebody actually goes over there and sees what's the roads look like, see how the housing looks like, see the poverty that exists in San Diego County and some of these reservations. Yeah.
Dr. John Castillo:That really makes a difference. So we're working right now on on getting some of these foundations, why don't you come out and visit? You know? And we ask for some permission from the tribal government first. We don't want to just start inviting people to come over.
Grant Oliphant:Show up. Right. Right.
Dr. John Castillo:Yeah. Yeah. So I I think, you know, we talking to just a tad earlier is taking a different strategic approach, coming up with new ways to break that gap. And so we want to work together. I know probably pointed out in the past and so little money in philanthropy has gone to, native organizations, native tribes in the history of philanthropy.
Dr. John Castillo:Right.
Mariano Diaz:I have to say something and and and I'll I'll own up to something that in terms of the work that we do, I think one of the things that is so important in the language development that seems to always reinvent itself, well, now we're calling it this, so you gotta now shift over there and, you know, learn the definitions. And, you know, that, there really is a level of urgency grant to this work. You know, it's not like community development in Los Angeles, where you already have existing infrastructure, you already have housing. The question is, how do you improve it and build more? And I think to John's point, you know, taking people into, you know, your backyard where literally, you know, you had an infrastructure project that, you know, built a new sewer system, you know, in a native neighborhood.
Mariano Diaz:And it's wonderful. But they ran out of money to connect the plumbing system from the individual homes to the new sewer system, and it's literally 10 feet away. Know? And before the new sewer sewer system and water delivery that was built at huge cost, the people who lived in these new homes had to drink water from the backyard hose. Now, and we go there and that was, the project was completed six years ago, we go there and they're still getting their water from that backyard hose.
Mariano Diaz:The question that's got to be looked at and the urgency and I think the attitude that's got to come with that is you would never tolerate that in your neighbourhood. You would never accept those conditions for you and your children. And here this family, you know, does this every day. And the indignity that comes with using the backyard hose to collect your water. I mean, it's just so over the top with me that I just wanna tear my hair out.
Mariano Diaz:And it really is difficult to then sit at the table and with a group of funders that have resources and have staff to actually finance their own learning however you want to approach it, right? You know, do a study or just hire a native American to drive you up, you know, 10 miles. Is the difficulty of the modeling and the language.
Grant Oliphant:Such a great example.
Dr. John Castillo:Yeah, want to get into that. So it's a happy story too, right? I was meeting with, I go to, know, health services are responsible for water delivery on a reservation. So I was meeting in Maryland with the higher ups, you know, with the way high up people. I told him, you know, hey, I'm on the grassroots level.
Dr. John Castillo:I'm telling you a story right now what's going on in this reservation. I couldn't believe they were they were hearing because they're at this policy level and they're not not getting that information, you know. So I told them all about it. And so after about another year, they were able to send more resources to finish those pipes and stuff to these homes. But it took a while before, like, answer, they ran out of funds a while back.
Dr. John Castillo:It was sad. And we didn't learn about it because sometimes, even though we're trusted by these reservations, sometimes it takes a little while to share a little bit more information because you know, they don't want to be embarrassed or or whatever the the whatever you want to call it. So, I asked to begin this trust and relationship with us and say, you know, is another one over here that we need to tell you about. So, as we learn, we can make those efforts at a higher level. I have not been to Washington DC since COVID and I probably not going go for a couple more years.
Dr. John Castillo:But, you know, we work with congress on both sides. I work I work with in house services. I work with the Pentagon to keep them informed of what our needs are in Indian country so they can hear from the grassroot level.
Grant Oliphant:So let me ask you. We're running out of time. Let's see if we can do a lightning round of a couple of questions because I I wanna get these in. Just can you reflect for a second about what partnership among government and philanthropy and tribal nations looks like when it's working well? What does that look like?
Dr. John Castillo:It looks like success. You know? Everybody win.
Grant Oliphant:Okay. How about an interim step? But
Dr. John Castillo:Well, you know, it it takes people around to come around the table for a common a common goal. And if you have a win win situation, that's when it works the best. So for the military, when they come in and work with us, they're getting the training and getting ready for deployment readiness, which we hope they never have to be deployed. It's also an extra retention tool tool for them. It keeps them at the reserves signing back up.
Dr. John Castillo:It's excellent, for the tribes. They now have new roads or water wells or bridges or homes or electrical lines. Mean, it keeps going on and on. And of course, so the tribe wins and then Walking Shield, whose mission is to improve the quality of life for our reservations and off reservation communities, we all win. So if you can get a partnership that we all win, it's so much better than trying to fight with each other over something.
Dr. John Castillo:You know?
Mariano Diaz:But, you know, that's Right. That's a good question, Grant, in that we have tribal partners that are trying to organize around those co management concepts. But there's a tribe in Northern California that's one of our tribal partners that we try to visit as often as we can. And their approach was to organize their assets around alternative energy Mhmm. And build the casino and the housing and all the infrastructure with with the end goal of developing alternative energy resources and reinvest in the reservation to generate the employment, to generate the infrastructure, to look at all revenues that come in to the reservation that doesn't go to its members.
Mariano Diaz:It's reinvested, you know, in the reservation, and it's the alternative energy development that is financing the co management opportunities. Well, now you have a situation where the tribe's success in energy management and revenue production is that they now are the primary partner for fire management in the region. They built a heliport on the reservation to support fire management suppression and recovery. They have purchased fire equipment that exceeds any ability of local government to have, And it's a shared now resources. They're training their firefighters on the new cook and ladder they bought.
Mariano Diaz:So the concept of success, it really is in this co management. It doesn't always start in a friendly situation, it does create friendships local government has now to work with them because the tribe is now selling stored electricity to downtown.
Dr. John Castillo:Right.
Mariano Diaz:So so everybody love What about
Grant Oliphant:what I love about that example is it's sort of the the process itself brought out the shared interest that maybe one of the one of the partners didn't want to acknowledge existed at the front end, which I think is often true of partnerships. Okay. Quickly, because we're running out of time. I I I think in this era, it's important to end on a on a note of hope, although I found a lot to be hopeful about in this conversation. But I would love to know what you're you talk about to give other people hope or that gives you hope that you would wanna share with our audience right now.
Dr. John Castillo:For for us, for Walking Shield, we've working together, you had foundations and government. We've made a a major difference, but it it's a partnership. It's a collaboration. So our our strength is working with a lot of different partners to make a difference. And so that we all look good.
Dr. John Castillo:Right? And the people in the community that really needs the help, whether it be eyeglasses or a safe road to drive on, everybody gets a pat on the back. So we made a difference, it's a collaborative process. Just can't do it by ourselves.
Grant Oliphant:Great. And Mariano, what about you?
Mariano Diaz:Walking Shield is a service organization. And what I mean by that is that we work with our tribal partners to serve their interests, their self determination plans based on what they wanna do, separate from a funding source or what is it that you wanna achieve, what's the plan, And how do we do that? And working with outside partners, the ones that we're trying to develop, is the same approach. How can we be of service to you to achieve your economic development goals that could include native American communities and reservations that has land, that has people in which they're looking to improve their quality of life? What is the match points that we can identify and act on?
Grant Oliphant:Beautiful. I you know, what I what I heard in those very quick answers was partnership and and service. And it's it's interesting that as a source of hope is probably the most enduring source we could ask for, you know, asking saying that you find it in how people work together and how they serve each other. I just wanna thank you both for for taking the time to sit with me today and talk about this. It has been a rich conversation that we easily could have gone another hour on, but unfortunately, we don't have it.
Grant Oliphant:So just thank you both and thank you more importantly for the extraordinary work you're doing.
Dr. John Castillo:Thank you, Grant. Thank you, Grant.
Grant Oliphant:All right, Crystal, what'd you think?
Crystal Page:I think it was very deep, a lot to unpack.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah, Well, there's a lot of very serious material to cover. And for me, I was struck by how many times the concept of sovereignty came up and the complex ways of viewing that and how important that understanding is for anybody working with the notion of self determination among people. So I thought that was powerful.
Crystal Page:Yeah, it stood out to me because I think we hear those words, self determination all the time, right? But it seems like those partnerships with government, with the military really allow the tribes then to really shape what they want the course of their future to look like.
Grant Oliphant:I was struck too by the long view. So the perspective that the challenges that we're facing in the moment are in many respects old and familiar to tribal nations and so less inclined to panic about it in the moment and to think about issues like environmental stewardship and co management of the land as long term challenges and goals. And to think about partnerships and bridging divides as long term challenges and goals. And recognizing, and soberingly so, to hear that, yeah, there have been plenty of reversals over the course of hundreds of years and how important it is to keep moving toward the goal anyway.
Crystal Page:Yeah, I think that the wisdom of Doctor. Castillo, as I listened and reflected, he's right. That's not just for the tribes, that's for a lot of our history. You have to hold that long view. You talk about that even in philanthropy playing that long game, having the long view of things.
Crystal Page:And so I imagine the amount of patience it takes, but also the persistence to make sure your folks are ready when that moment strikes where you can move your goals forward.
Dr. John Castillo:I
Crystal Page:just found really impressive and something I'm going to sit with.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah, a lot to sit with on this. And I think probably one of the most important lessons on top of that is how we should listen rather than speak so often that it is important to meet people where they are and to recognize different traditions and to accept that as part of how we engage with other human beings. Really a lot of wisdom in terms of how philanthropy should operate and how we would hope government would as well. So conversation in terms of some very important themes.
Crystal Page:Agreed. I'm so grateful that they made themselves available to us for this interview and thanks for unpacking it with me.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah, likewise. Thank you.
Mariano Diaz:Appreciate it.
Crystal Page:Thanks everybody.
Grant Oliphant:This is a production of the Prebis Foundation.
Crystal Page:Hosted by Grant Oliphant.
Grant Oliphant:Co hosted by Crystal Page.
Crystal Page:Co produced by Crystal Page and Adam Greenfield.
Grant Oliphant:Engineered by Adam Greenfield.
Crystal Page:Production coordination by Tess Kureski.
Grant Oliphant:Video production by Edgar Ontiveros Medina.
Crystal Page:Special thanks to the Previse Foundation team.
Grant Oliphant:The Stop and Talk theme song was created by San Diego's own mister Lyrical Groove.
Crystal Page:Download episodes at your favorite podcatcher or visit us at previsefdn.org.
