Dr. Mary Walshok: When the world wants to see the future, they look at California
Hi, Grant.
Grant Oliphant:Hi, Crystal.
Crystal Page:How are you today?
Grant Oliphant:I'm great.
Crystal Page:So we're back for season 2 of Stop and Talk.
Grant Oliphant:Yes. We are.
Crystal Page:And today in studio, we had someone who she is just a ball of energy. Will you tell me about who we had in today?
Grant Oliphant:So we had doctor Mary Walshok, who is a force of nature and a luminary, a long time luminary in San Diego who was vice chancellor at the University of San Diego, recently retired from that role. Principal architect of the creation of UCSD's facility at Park and Market, but really I think most importantly for our listeners, somebody who's thought long and hard about the role of innovation in San Diego's economy, about the role of the innovation, that happens here in terms of shaping the country and the future of the world, and just the connections between creativity at multiple levels, be it in the arts or in technology or in the commune in in the design of our communities, and really thinking through what the future here could look like. So an exciting person, an exciting thinker. I think people will enjoy this interview.
Crystal Page:I think you're right. I mean, I know, to acknowledge, she's also on our board at the Prebys Foundation.
Grant Oliphant:Oh, yeah. I left that out.
Crystal Page:Tell me that. I mean Yeah. Grant, we had her with at our holiday gathering. Right? And I am just blown away.
Crystal Page:She's such a global traveler, but then the way she relays it in in stories. So, just tell me why is on our board, and what do you what do you hope to hear from our team?
Grant Oliphant:What's we, we're really blessed to have an extraordinary board, and we've got several interviews with several board members lined up, for this season, not because they're board members, but really because they're interesting people doing important things in the context of this community and its importance for everywhere else. So Mary is on our board because she is everything I just described. You know? She is a leading thinker. If you I I noticed this when I first arrived in town, and I started talking to people about who should I meet.
Grant Oliphant:1 of the top five people on every single person's list was Mary Walshok. And the reason she was on the list was because she has lots of stories, and she's willing to tell them. And she has lots of insights into San Diego, and is willing to share them. And, as I think our listeners will hear, she really has a knack for putting the pieces together in a way that helps us understand the significance of this community and the potential for this community.
Crystal Page:Well, I'm excited. Can we jump in and hear her?
Grant Oliphant:I think we should. Let's do it.
Crystal Page:Awesome. Let's do it.
Grant Oliphant:Mary Walshok, thanks so much for being here with me.
Mary Walshok:Thank you.
Grant Oliphant:I I am at a loss almost for where to begin. You and I got to know each other 2 years ago. You were one of the first people I met in San Diego, and you kind of knocked my socks off as people had told me you would in terms of your breadth of understanding of the community. And I'm gonna come back to that. But I actually wanna start with a story you just told me before we started recording about how your alma mater asked you to come back to deliver a talk about your life story.
Mary Walshok:Yeah.
Grant Oliphant:And you came up with a theme. Would you say a little bit more about what you think the theme of your life has been?
Mary Walshok:It's a it's a it's a big alumni award. It's my 60th class. It's for the college, not just for the class.
Grant Oliphant:For Pomona
Mary Walshok:for Pomona. College.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah.
Mary Walshok:One of the Claremont Colleges where I had a wonderful liberal arts education, and I I've been reflecting a lot because it's 10 minutes.
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Mary Walshok:And what I realized is the connective thread for me was how place mattered in terms of my childhood. I mean, I grew up in Palm Springs, California in the 19 forties, right after World War 2
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Mary Walshok:With Armenians and Lebanese and holocaust survivors and movie people, movie stars, directors, and writers, and my dad having this Swedish restaurant. And I grew up the son of - a daughter of immigrants and spent time in Sweden as a child in my forties in the 19 forties and fifties. And all those places, all those experiences, I think, shaped me. Then I chose my college, small liberal arts rather than going to UCLA. Then I chose to get a PhD rather than become an elementary school teacher like all the smart girls.
Grant Oliphant:That's a big divergence.
Mary Walshok:That's a big divergence. So I'm I'm threading it into my work. And as you know well, I've written 6 books, and I'm writing a 7th now. And they the what binds them all is place and how Pittsburgh is different than Chicago, and Chicago is different than Seattle, and San Diego is different than than, Phoenix, that sort of thing.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah. When I reflect on the very first conversation you and I had when we came to town, and it was evident in your writings, by the way, that place was a theme for you. It's how the lens through which you look at things like innovation, for example. But the the theme of that very first discussion was how important place is, and and what you hoped to see would come to pass in San Diego. Mhmm.
Grant Oliphant:So we're gonna get to that too. But I think part of your message to me, I mean I remember these words very distinctly, you you said, you know Grant, when the world wants to know what's going to happen they come to California Mhmm. To look at what where the world is going. Yeah. Yeah.
Grant Oliphant:And and you expressed the hope that that was also true for San Diego
Grant Oliphant:and that, and that you thought it could be if we leaned into it in the right way. And the conversation we ended up having was about what we hoped they would see. Mhmm. And when you think about this community as a place that matters and as a as a harbinger of a future that you hope may yet be. What is it that you hope people will see in coming to San Diego?
Mary Walshok:Well, I'm actually going to begin with the geography, topography, and climate. Yeah. Because this is a beautiful place to live and play and work, whether you're working class or super rich. And I think we have the opportunity to maximize the benefits of the physical space and access to the health, healthy and open space and and parks and beaches so that it influences the quality of life for all people. We don't have that yet.
Mary Walshok:I mean, there are still programs that bring youth from, Southeast San Diego to the beach, and it's the first time they've seen it and they're 16 years old. But the beach is a beautiful place.
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Mary Walshok:So I do think the physicality and the health giving qualities of the space place. And I also think a lot of people respect that. You know, they like the environment. They like the idea of stealing avocados off my tree or figs or oranges, and I think so that's important. But the demography of this place is also fascinating with our long in Native American heritage through into Baja and and east, and I grew up in Palm Springs, the Agua Caliente Indians.
Mary Walshok:And, this heritage was very rich for me when I was growing up, and I think it's very, very important. But the the Mexican, Latino, themes, but also Asian Americans. Everybody forgets, you know, where do hot tubs come from? You know, Japanese ryokans. And so that's the the the ethnic diversity and the promise of demonstrating how people from from very different backgrounds, very different religions, eating very different kinds of food, and listening to different kinds of music can live together and learn to love and respect one another.
Mary Walshok:And then the third thing about this place that just knocks my socks off is how smart in the past, I'm not sure we're as smart today, civic leaders were in making zoning decisions and making public investments, particularly in the Torrey Pines Mesa.
Grant Oliphant:Mhmm.
Mary Walshok:But even earlier in terms of dredging the harbor to bring the navy here, those were all civic instigated.
Grant Oliphant:And the Torrey Pines Mesa is important because
Mary Walshok:of the research
Grant Oliphant:It's where the that's where all the research
Mary Walshok:So now you have Salk and you have, TSRI and UCSD and probably the number one center of NIH research in the country because of the concentration of all of those buildings and activities and the talent they've been able to draw.
Grant Oliphant:So let's go back to the the diversity of the region for a moment because I love how you put that.
Mary Walshok:Mhmm.
Grant Oliphant:And as you were saying it, you know, it resonates for us at the foundation because we talk about that a lot. But as you were saying it, it struck me, and we live in this time where so many people are questioning any talk about diversity or inclusion Or why it matters. From your perspective, why does it matter?
Mary Walshok:Well, I think it matters because I actually believe if we can tap into the social diversity, we've got a bigger talent pool. Because I really do believe, giftedness, intelligence, mechanical ability, artistic sensibilities are equally distributed among groups. And so if we think it's only among Anglo Americans, it's it's at our peril. So number 1 is just pragmatic that we need the big talent pool, and we wanna tap into it. But number 2, we live in a global context. So even though I talk about how much place and locale matter, I also write a lot about how global imperatives and global challenges and opportunities change what a place can be And what it can accomplish. I mean, look at the automobile industry in Michigan, and that's Yeah.
Mary Walshok:That change that came with the Volvos and the VWs and the
Grant Oliphant:Or steel.
Mary Walshok:Toyotas or steel or whatever. But also, here, everything from tourism to sporting equipment. And so I do think that living with diverse communities gives us a window into a larger world in which locals have to be able to function, gets us comfortable with difference, gets us comfortable with diversity. And for me, because I'm an arts and culture vulture, diversity is extraordinary in terms of enriching the music, the dance, the opera, the theater, the visual arts that are available to us. And so it's it's actually enriching and inspiring.
Mary Walshok:So it's pragmatic. It's economically sound. It's, emotionally and culturally enriching, and it's also, if you live in a democracy, a major social justice issue.
Grant Oliphant:And we'll probably touch on many of those points here, but I wanna spend a minute more on the connection between innovation and inclusion. Because you've talked a lot
Grant Oliphant:about this, that it matters to the future of a community like ours. And And I would argue a country like ours, but
Mary Walshok:Mhmm.
Grant Oliphant:A community like ours that we make the connection between innovation and inclusion. Can you just say a little bit more about that
Mary Walshok:Well, I'm gonna go back. I have a colleague at Berkeley by the name of Annalise Saxanian, and she, has written seminal books about the Silicon Valley and the Route 128 Corridor and the early innovation hubs route 128, sorry, in Massachusetts
Grant Oliphant:That's right.
Mary Walshok:Around Boston. And she, in a single paragraph, came up with an analogy that I find very useful. She's saying the economy is more like a rainforest than a plantation. And if you think about the plantation culture, the agricultural world, where everything was about we can only grow corn. We can't we gotta eliminate pests.
Mary Walshok:We've gotta eliminate other kinds of growth that interfere with corn. You know, it's like a one trick pony. What's a rainforest? Totally beautiful and chaotic with continuous unexpected outcomes, hybrids. New orchids appear.
Mary Walshok:Right? New flora and fauna prosper because of the synergies and the connections. And for me, I think there's a social analogy, which is you can build a society where everybody believes the same thing, has the same set of skills, works in the same industry, but at its peril, it will go out of business or lose its relevance. But if you can create communities that are more like rainforest. So it's not just about everybody should have a chance to get a an existing education or work for an existing company.
Mary Walshok:Everybody has to get a chance to be a creative, an innovator, to bump into one another because it's in those collisions that innovation and new ideas happen. And that's what I think of as the importance of diversity to innovation.
Grant Oliphant:I think that's so beautifully said.
Mary Walshok:Oh, thank you.
Grant Oliphant:No. It's just so beautifully said. And I I I think what I wanna, make sure that people who are listening know about you. If they if they know you, they know this. But if they don't know you, they should know that you're not you're no mere academic just saying things that you, you know, are pioneering on philosophy.
Grant Oliphant:You've lived this. Yes. And you've and you've put real infrastructure into practice.
Mary Walshok:So people can bump into one another.
Grant Oliphant:And and I'm thinking specifically right now of an effort that you led to have UC San Diego, which is this booming metropolis of an innovation hub on the Torrey Pines Mesa to connect that with the heart of the of the urban core
Mary Walshok:Right.
Grant Oliphant:At a place called Park and Market
Mary Walshok:Right.
Grant Oliphant:Where you, helped create a building that connects to the outdoors, that has a street presence, that, invites the community in, that is being used for a variety of community meetings. What was your notion in well, say tell us a little bit more about how that came into being and
Mary Walshok:Well, I I mean, I think
Grant Oliphant:why why it was important.
Mary Walshok:I think the idea of creating settings that support, chaos and, the unexpected and, easy encounters and collisions of ideas. And, I think when we designed park and market, we saw it as a kind of physical platform to enable those sorts of engagements. Right. So on the 4th floor is, we have offices, and the San Diego economic development corporation has their headquarters there. Those are the 100 largest employers
Grant Oliphant:Mhmm.
Mary Walshok:That belong to that organization. They have board meetings there, they have committee meetings, People are in and out of the building. On the 3rd floor, we have UCSD's Labor Studies Center, and they're all about research and representation of people who work for those 100 employers, and they're in the same building. And then there's the Black Chamber of Commerce, and there are a couple foundations, you know, the Burnham Center For Community Advancement, the Gerard Gerard Foundation, on whose board I sit, the World Design Capital, Qualcomm Institute from the UCSD campus, urban studies, public health. So people are bumping into one another in the elevator, in the restrooms, over the coffee machines, and getting acquainted in ways that it might take them months to just get an appointment with one another.
Mary Walshok:So it it's it's it's full of activities that enable that. And as you may know, Grant, we also convinced the Digital Gym Cinema, which is a fabulous program Right. Of media instruction for inner city kids, but also a wonderful fine arts movie theater. So we show movies, foreign films, Syrian Film Festival, the recent Latino Film Festival. So I have friends from the Torrey Pines Mesa who come from Germany or Sweden or Italy and say, I really like your space downtown.
Mary Walshok:And I go, oh, what brought you? Oh, we went to see a German film. And so the cinema, a small concert hall that holds 220, and a forum area where you can have conferences of up to 300 people. So it's a place of it's a gathering place. It's a platform that enables social interactions that might not otherwise happen.
Grant Oliphant:I, I I it is it was an amazing vision, and it remains an amazing vision. The the it's difficult for people to understand how different the worlds are that you've connected at either end of this trolley line, and you've created a place where the vision that you have of what San Diego ought to be actually happens, where ideas bump up against each other. You mentioned, the, EDC, which is the Economic Development Council for San Diego, and Mark Cafferty, who heads that organization and himself is an extraordinary leader, has described you this way, and I wanna and I wanna read this because
Mary Walshok:Oh dear oh dear
Grant Oliphant:Since you brought it up in that and you you just evidenced it, but he has described you as, Mary Walshok is the storyteller of our economy, the poet of our economy. To hear Mary talk about our economy is to hear pure poetry even when you're talking about industry clusters and job trainings and some of those things that don't sound like poetry normally. And that's true. I think you're
Grant Oliphant:I think you're demonstrating it, but what is it that so excites you about talking about this in the way that you do
Mary Walshok:Well, I think probably a little bit of it is I'm a first generation American. My parents were immigrants, and people could say, oh, blonde blue eyed Swedes, that's not really an immigrant. Well, in the 19 thirties, it was. My dad was the dumb Swede. Can't you can't you say v's w's instead of v's, and he never learned how to say vegetable.
Mary Walshok:It always was wegetable. Yeah. You know, that sort of thing. Yeah. So I I was conscious of, differences, but I do think it goes back to my childhood and the place where I lived and the kinds of friends and interactions in that small desert town that was very focused on the entertainment industry, which at that time, which was hugely diverse.
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Mary Walshok:But I think it may also be something in my religious background. I'm not I'm not sure. But I think that it's possible, Grant, to do for the city what we've done in this little, sort of test case at park and market. Think if a city center were designed in some kind of very intentional way to make it attractive for diverse folks from all over the city to come into the downtown.
Mary Walshok:Right? Because of music or food or conferences or gathering places or the housing of some of the key agencies or organizations that are important to them. So I think my idea of great cities, and maybe my sweet Swedishness too. Swedes are very interested in, you know, social purpose. Purpose, equity, and fair distribution.
Mary Walshok:As my father would always say to me, you know, in Sweden, they don't want you to be too poor just like in America, but they also don't want you to be too rich. And so it's much more of a middle class. So I think a lot of those values inform my ideas.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah. And I I am always struck by the multiple levels of influence and perspectives that you bring into a conversation about what should happen in San Diego. And I wanna I wanna come back in a moment to your idea of of really applying the same principles that you applied to park and market, to the city center, and to the city more broadly. But I think we first need to talk about this capacity to talk about the world and talk about the local.
Mary Walshok:Mhmm.
Grant Oliphant:And in in an exchange that we had, before we sat down for this interview, you wrote something that really resonates with me because I think it is profoundly true. You said communities are at their peril if they either overvalue local knowledge, so parochialism
Mary Walshok:Mhmm.
Grant Oliphant:Or undervalue global knowledge. Mhmm. In the former case, they can make naive decisions because of a lack of experience models and alternatives that can come from a larger perspective, And in the latter, they run the risk of relying too much on external experts and experiences of other places when actually local experience and geography history and demography, as well as economic imperatives are more important in moving the community forward in a transformative way. How do you think San Diego is doing in terms of balancing the local with the global?
Mary Walshok:Not well.
Grant Oliphant:And say more about that. Why not?
Mary Walshok:And I think it's because I spend as much time on the Torrey Pines Mesa as I spend downtown.
Grant Oliphant:So, again, in that research hub, which is the engine region of San Diego's economy now.
Mary Walshok:Now retired, so I can say things like this in a podcast. It's a status symbol to say, why would I read the local paper? I read the New York Times.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah.
Mary Walshok:I'm an intellectual. I'm a researcher. But you live in this city. And so there's a disengagement from the news, the ideas, the experiences of the locale in which many of these global institutions and global players operate. So we can have, and I have friends like this, you know, deputy, with, you know, in in the federal government, assistant secretaries of a, b, or c with Madeleine Albright or with, you know, Janet Yellen, scientists who are extraordinary collaborating in China and Sweden and and California, but they know nothing and don't care maybe or just haven't been able to see why it's important that the larger region of which they're apart is something for them to know about.
Mary Walshok:But on the other side, there's this local booster enthusiast. I love all these people, by the way. Don't please don't take my description
Grant Oliphant:These are all our friends.
Mary Walshok:All all the people I love, and and and maybe that's the reason I feel so strongly we can find ways to bring them together. But there's also this sort of boosterism kind of, you know, let's go after big events, annual this, whatever we can to market the city
Grant Oliphant:Yeah.
Mary Walshok:And what a great place it is. And
Grant Oliphant:Why would we need to answer?
Mary Walshok:And and and we know how to do that and disconnected, if you will, from the extraordinary changes that are happening demographically. I mean, the migration patterns across the world are incredibly significant
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Mary Walshok:To what potentially is going to happen here. The innovation that's taking place in health care, in agriculture, in program learning is gonna have a profound implication profound implications for our space. Material science, how we can build buildings, right, and pave streets. Scientists are doing stuff. So the local has a stake
Crystal Page:Right.
Mary Walshok:In what the global guys and gals are doing. But the global guys and gals need to connect to the local, not out of a sense of public service, but out of a sense of this is my place. And this is where my university, my research center, my children, potentially my grandchildren may live. And I think that's a challenge we have in San Diego compared to some other major cities.
Grant Oliphant:Since since you're in the mood for truth telling And and at a at a stage where you feel you can you can do that
Mary Walshok:That's right.
Grant Oliphant:I'm gonna try not to get you in trouble Okay. Kinda. But do you, what are the areas where you think as a result of that dynamic, San Diego falls down? Where where are we lacking where we should
Mary Walshok:Something you and I have talked about, and I think we have to be really honest about, is there's today and I've been here 54 years. Okay? And I grew up only a 100 miles from here. Today, there is enormous wealth. In fact, recently, you said to me, there's more wealth in San Diego than in Pittsburgh.
Mary Walshok:But that wealth is concentrated when it comes to philanthropy on certain kinds of institutions and endeavors.
Grant Oliphant:Mhmm.
Mary Walshok:Many of which relate to research and culture and museums. And if you will, the passions and the interests of highly educated global people
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Mary Walshok:Like you and me. Right. And we love it. I mean, I love having a La Jolla Playhouse and the old globe, Not questioning the investments in that. But what about daycare for families in low income neighborhoods?
Mary Walshok:What about workforce training programs, for new veterans or for kids in high school who may not be college bound. Everything I think among elites in San Diego focuses on you can be just like me. I'll help you go to college. You can be like me, and you can like my theater, and you can like my music, and you can like and I think within the curatorial community in the arts, we have a lot of curatorial people who want to broaden, to take risks. Right? Like the opera doing the, new opera on Frito and Diego. And you look at some of the wonderful things Barry Adelstein is doing. The old globe. Yeah.
Mary Walshok:The old globe. And I mean and and you look at Rafael Payere Yeah. And Martha. So these are sort of conventional arts organizations, which curatorily are committed to the kind of diversity, inclusiveness, and more new voices and new artists. So I guess what I'm saying is there's a gap between how people who could invest in the community, are seeing what needs to be done to make it a good community.
Mary Walshok:And some of the ideas, liberal social scientists like me, you you have about the importance of building capacity Right. In lower income communities. And the one place you you, where there is a lot of investment is in pipeline programs. But those pipeline programs focus exclusively on universities. And we have seen with San Diego City College and with things like workshops for warriors and other programs in this town.
Mary Walshok:I'm not touting them, but they actually produce people who are essential to our economy and society. And we need to invest in a broader range, in my opinion.
Grant Oliphant:You know, in some ways well, actually many ways, what you're describing is the story of America at the moment and a struggle that's happening all over the country around bridging these divides. Is there any reason San Diego especially struggles with it?
Mary Walshok:I think it's so new. Mhmm. So as I said to you, in the 40, 50 years that I've been here, it's transformed. And it's the whole west has, you know, this the the wealth creation and the concentration of philanthropic money is no longer on the East Coast.
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Mary Walshok:It's really moved to the west Right. To Texas, to California, to Washington. And so we're young, and we're new at this.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah. Well and and what I wanna underscore in you talking about these things is I think it comes across how much you love this place.
Mary Walshok:Mhmm.
Grant Oliphant:And I think sometimes we're afraid to be critical of places that we love because we're afraid people will think that we don't love. Mhmm. And in fact, it's evident in everything you say that you care about San Diego, you're proud of San Diego, and you think there are ways in which San Diego could do better, and you hope San Diego will do better. You mentioned earlier in our discussion the geniuses from the past who who created some of the great parts of the city. And, you know, I often look at Balboa Park as an extraordinary asset. And the cultural institutions that were created there as unique in the country Mhmm. In terms of a physical place that houses so much Mhmm. In a beautiful setting Mhmm. That is impossible to rival.
Grant Oliphant:And, you know, there was a lot of wisdom in the community back then. Yes. When you fast forward to today, and this, of course, is what the Prebys Foundation is working on every single day, what are the things that we get the community excited about doing today?
Mary Walshok:Well, if you look at where philanthropy, the bulk of philanthropy is going, clearly health care and connecting that to health care equity, right, is a target of opportunity because there's a lot of interest. But can we speak the truth? Yes. Many of the research centers are for the diseases of the old and dying, and there's not enough being invested in the young and the growing. And you can look at the data and see it.
Mary Walshok:And, you know, we have Rady's Children's Hospital, and they now have a research center that is so exciting. Mhmm. We have a school, 2 schools of public health, 1 at San Diego State, 1 at UCSD. Those are exciting from my point of view. Those are investable opportunities.
Mary Walshok:Urban studies and planning, design labs. Those are investable, in my opinion. So this whole health care sphere and the talent development, look at how City College and USD and SDSU are all trying to build the workforce of the future in health care, many of whom burned out and were lost during COVID. So that's a sector, but it's not necessarily the cardiovascular centers and the you see what I mean? I it's okay.
Mary Walshok:I think the second thing is the willingness to invest in significant arts and cultural organizations that aren't just next door to where you live. Okay?
Grant Oliphant:Right. Right.
Mary Walshok:So the Rady Shell for me is iconic in that way. It shows that you can get people together
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Mary Walshok:To invest in a very innovative public private partnership that culturally serves an extraordinary array of people, rock concerts, country concerts, classical music, and it's a hub. I mean, I I feel Rady and Park and Market are 2 superb examples.
Mary Walshok:Well, they they demonstrate that we can still do big things
Mary Walshok:We can do big projects, yes.
Mary Walshok:3rd space that binds many, many of us is the environment. And and I know the Prebys Foundation is very interested in in sort of some of the catastrophes and the problems. But, also, you what you pointed out, parks matter. You know, street lined streets matter. Sidewalks, lights at night, pocket parks, places where children can play and elderly people can get exercise.
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Mary Walshok:You know, I mean, all of those things are an investment in the place, maximizing the fact that we can live outdoors year round, for example. So there isn't hasn't yet been the sort of civic will or leadership to emerge on those sorts of fronts. But for me, those are targets of opportunity that benefit everyone, whether you live on the Torrey Pines Mesa or Otay Mesa.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah. And I I I I wanna underscore them because I think these are really powerful. So the, you know, the health care of the future Mhmm. Is is 1. The arts that pulls people together from all over the community and creates inspiration for people no matter what their background is.
Grant Oliphant:And I agree with you about The Shell, I think it is a wonderful gathering place for community that functions in the same way that Balboa Park does.
Mary Walshok:Yeah. The park. Yes.
Grant Oliphant:And then the environment, I would I would endorse that as well. And although the foundation doesn't approach environmental issues Right. Per se, we see the connection between that and health
Mary Walshok:Oh, for sure.
Grant Oliphant:Very clear terms. Yes. And so for example, our recent involvement in the Tijuana River Right. Valley, which connected back to one of the schools of public health that you mentioned in research they did.
Grant Oliphant:It illustrates that health is very dependent on the environment, and you're a 100% right to point to that. I think what's also interesting about these three examples is that they are assets San Diego has.
Mary Walshok:Yes.
Grant Oliphant:So we have a unique environment. Yes. We have a stunning array of medical research and healthcare facilities, and we've got fantastic arts and culture Mhmm. Resources.
Mary Walshok:And we have the social diversity to weave into a tapestry of a genuinely integrated community on all these fronts.
Grant Oliphant:And they're and they're they're I I I I I don't mean to be repetitive, but it's worth repeating. They are all connected in a way you know, quality of life connects to you you listed things like parks and and and cultural experiences, and they're all connected to a healthier view of community, which as you know is the core concept of the work we're doing at the Prebys Foundation is to promote promote community well-being. Yes.
Mary Walshok:And they all contribute to a sense of belonging.
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Mary Walshok:That I belong here.
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Mary Walshok:And when you create institutions that are kind of isolated in only high income neighborhoods, not easy to get to and park, and you don't exactly know how to dress and other things. It it's it it doesn't have the same effect as a place like the Shell
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Mary Walshok:Where you can just kinda walk in. And and I think from a a social point of view, we have to have many places that welcome many different people.
Grant Oliphant:And I think this is what you were pointing to earlier just to close the loop on this around a city that mirrors what you're trying to do at Park and Market.
Mary Walshok:Yes
Grant Oliphant:Right?
Mary Walshok:Well, and I think you brought up the example of Balboa Park.
Grant Oliphant:Mhmm.
Mary Walshok:And I've written a couple of op eds about the park Yes. Is an example of what how a city can work, and and the Rady Shell is becoming that. So we have examples
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Mary Walshok:Of places where people make an effort to go to because they feel they're gonna have a good experience there, and they're welcome there.
Grant Oliphant:So you probably don't define yourself as a futurist, but I think you're a futurist.
Mary Walshok:I'm an optimist Yeah. For sure.
Grant Oliphant:I wanna talk about that too. But the you know, when you when you so you've studied the past, and you've looked at some of the strengths of the moment and the weaknesses of the moment. Fast forward from today, 20 or 25 years, what do you think are the strengths of San Diego that we should be leaning into and that will distinguish this community and help help us in leading America to a better place Yeah. As the country comes here to see the future. What are we gonna be showing them?
Mary Walshok:So let me start in terms of the economy because everybody frets. Oh, we don't have Fortune 500 companies. We don't have headquarter companies. All of our companies get acquired and go elsewhere. But I don't think the economy is dependent on companies.
Mary Walshok:It's dependent on talent Mhmm. And talented people. So everything we can do to educate, retain, and retrain our local talent, whether it's in Southeast San Diego or on the Torrey Pines Mesa. We're investing in the innovation, the entrepreneurs, the supply vendors, supply service vendors, and there are a lot of them to the research community and to hospitals and to those sorts of things. So for me, building talent that is capable of adapting to unplanned for opportunities and challenges is really important and across a spectrum.
Mary Walshok:From a social point of view, I think I've already said to you, my sense is we gotta get people starting to use trolleys and buses more.
Grant Oliphant:Yes. Amen.
Mary Walshok:And traveling to more parts of the region.
Grant Oliphant:Right.
Mary Walshok:But I spend a lot of time at Bread and Salt, which is in Barrio Logan, on weeknights and weekends. And why do I go there? Because they got such cool music.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah.
Mary Walshok:And they've got wonderful art exhibits before you go in and listen to the music in a room that used to be a bakery. And it's got a vitality and you like being in Barrio Logan. And so we we need to invest so the places are likable and attractive.
Grant Oliphant:And I know you worry as much as anybody about high housing prices and the cost of living in this very expensive county and the number of people who have been leaving as a result. Is there a is is there a clear fix for that in this?
Mary Walshok:I'm not as sophisticated as perhaps I should be, but there seems to be examples in other cities of smaller housing, units. I mean, my generation grew up oh my god. I need a house, a garden ocean of water. And 2 a garage for 2 cars.
Mary Walshok:I've spent enough time in Asia now Yeah. And in, Southern Europe where people grow up in the apartments their grandparents and their parents grew up in. And they use public space and restaurants for gatherings. So I don't have to have a dining room for 30 people because I can go to my local pub or my local bistro and have my party with 30 people. And that's a lot of what I've learned from my encounters with Asia and now having an Asian daughter-in-law that the relationship between public space and private space is very different so that your private space is smaller.
Mary Walshok:But and I can and public space is parks, but it's also restaurants and
Grant Oliphant:And roads.
Mary Walshok:And clubs and Yeah. And event places. So how you do if I'm making sense Yeah. How you organize your day to day life? And I think we need to think about those things.
Grant Oliphant:So, Mary, we're, I can't believe it. This has flown by. We're running out of time almost, and I but I I wanna end with, by giving you a minute to talk about a concept that I think ties a lot of these threads together which is social innovation. San Diego is a place where important, technology and life sciences innovation is the driver of the economy of the future. So we understand that. But in addition to that, we're we're seeing a lot of innovation among nonprofits and social benefit corporations, and we're seeing a real commitment to mission and to community.
Grant Oliphant:That's a theme for young people in today's economy, and they wanna see that. Happens to be a strength that San Diego could leverage. What is the future for social innovation in San Diego?
Mary Walshok:Well, I think it really needs to be nurtured locally but informed globally. I'm sorry. I'm gonna go back back to that theme
Grant Oliphant:no. Let's bring it back
Mary Walshok:to that. To that theme because I think just as in technology and science, you need to know what's going on at Harvard. You need to know what's going on at Shanghai University and at Uppsala to do your work. We who want to be social innovators need to ask, are they doing something in Memphis or Seattle or Newark that could be relevant to us? And I think we're mired in our own sort of local conversations and experimentation.
Mary Walshok:So people wanna be experimental. But I think they're the imagination is not as wide and as enriched. And I don't think the confidence in social innovation is as high
Grant Oliphant:As it could be
Mary Walshok:be. It as it could be because when you see others who've done it well Yeah. And it's not just in your own community. So we're always saying we gotta consult with local groups. I absolutely agree with that.
Mary Walshok:But we also have to look for the exciting ideas that are in other places and integrate them into our local conversations.
Grant Oliphant:Well, I I just wanna say, Mary Walshok, thank you for doing this interview. But more importantly, thank you for the role that you play as the poet of the regional economy, to quote, Mark. But the, you know, I think the the willingness to say to a community that that has amazing great aspects that it can also still continue to improve Yeah. Is an important role that you play. And I I just wanna say thank you on behalf of all of us
Mary Walshok:Thank you.
Grant Oliphant:By the way, Sweden's loss are our gain.
Mary Walshok:I know. Thank you.
Grant Oliphant:Yes. Thank you.
Crystal Page:Wow. That was an amazing interview, Grant.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah. That was that was extraordinary. You know, I I I think the, comment that I shared with her from the EDC leader, Mark Cafferty, about Mary being the poet of the economy really resonates after that conversation. She is able to talk about the economic importance, value, opportunities, challenges, areas for improvement for this region in a way that I've rarely seen people talk about those subjects.
Crystal Page:And let me ask you, Grant, because what I love about Mary is not just her energy. She's a strong storyteller.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah.
Crystal Page:But what do you take away in terms of the opportunities ahead based on what Mary said?
Grant Oliphant:No. I think I'd what I loved especially in this interview was the way she kept putting together the the diverse parts of our region and our people and our disciplines that exist here. So she kept making the connection, for example, between the arts and culture and creativity with the innovation happening at the universities and on Torrey Pines, Mesa, and arguably in some other places around the region as well. But, you know, that that's sort of the metaphor. And and the and the opportunity to design intentionally a community that leverages the diversity of its people, the diversity of its art forms, the diversity of its thinking, the creativity that comes out of its sources of innovation, that the way she kept putting those pieces together was for me really exciting.
Crystal Page:And knowing, you know, you're the CEO of the Prebys Foundation, and she talks about, like, cross cutting. Right? Having people in same the same buildings and things, I think. Did she inspire you today to step out on a certain issue or to go forward? Yeah.
Grant Oliphant:Well, I've been you know? Look. I've been talking to Mary for 2 years, and I'm, I was inspired by her the very first time I talked to her. And I I mentioned this during the interview, but I, I was struck in our very first conversation by how she was thinking in global terms about the importance of this community and how she she thought about the fact that the world turns to this engine of creativity, California, to figure out where the world is going. And and why is that?
Grant Oliphant:It's not just because California's great and it's got it is because it puts together those pieces that she was talking about. Different people with different ideas bump up against each other, and from that comes these amazing new inventions and innovations. And and so I was struck by how she kept bringing that home to what she hoped San Diego would be. And I heard the same thing in this conversation today, just a little more fleshed out because we had more time to talk about it than we did in our first meeting. And I am inspired by what I see as the immense you know, not every not every community in America gets to start with the diverse population that we have, and she mentioned that.
Grant Oliphant:Not every community in America gets to start with the amazing assets of innovation in the universities and research centers. Not every community in America gets to start with the amazing range of arts and culture, artists and performance venues, and assets that exist here. We have all of those things. And then she talked about the environment and the role of nature. And, again, not every community in America gets to live outdoors most of the year.
Grant Oliphant:So there is something magical about this place. I used that term. She didn't. But it's because for me, I see the convergence of those elements that she was talking about as the really inspiring future of San Diego that we should all want to lean into and be excited about. But let me reverse the question and ask about you.
Grant Oliphant:What inspired you?
Crystal Page:You know, I think it's something that you and I always talk about. I think Mary pushes us a little bit on this whole concept of valuing the local, but at the same time, not undervaluing the global. Right? I think that that's a dance or it's a convergence, as you just said. How do we value both of those things and welcome them to allow all those new ideas to come forward.
Crystal Page:So I think she's left me in deep thought. I will probably be in deep thought for a few weeks because of it. Yeah. But I think that was the part I really wanted to actually ask you about to throw it back at you how do you see those two forces both the local and the global playing out on all these issues, all these exciting ideas that we have at this moment in time. Yeah.
Grant Oliphant:Well, I I I saw that part of our conversation as really being a challenge for us, for the Prebys Foundation, for the community at large. It is so easy to fall into the trap of thinking you've got your act together, and that you're perfect when you do have great elements to your act, and people seem to be responsive to it. Right? So what she was saying in part was, yeah, we've got these amazing, incredible components to our community, and they're not enough. To that, you also have to add the expertise and the wisdom that comes from the outside.
Grant Oliphant:And that's not enough. You have to come back to the wisdom that exists here in the community and the and the insights that you get from being in community here. So I think at some point in our conversation, we used the term that's the dance, and and I I think that's the dance. You know? What what we ended up talking about a lot was how it is important for a community like San Diego's, which is a whether whether it thinks about itself this way or not, is a global city, That we are constantly toggling back and forth between what the world can teach us and what we can teach the world, and maybe more importantly, what we can teach ourselves.
Grant Oliphant:That all of that is really important. And I I found that to be really exciting, but to your point, kind of thought provoking in terms of understanding how to actualize that every day. You know, how do you how do you make that real every single day? And I think the answer is, you focus on the tasks in front of you, but you think very broadly about the way in which they play out and for whom. You know?
Grant Oliphant:That was another takeaway for me, and I I know you you keyed in on this as well. But the way in which she talked about the importance of inclusion and diversity in this community, she talked about it in local terms, but she also talked about it as being part of a global economy and understanding that who we are is actually part of our strength. I love that.
Crystal Page:No. I agree with you. When she talked about her daughter-in-law who comes from, I forget which country she said, but basically, there's wisdom to be learned from all these different folks we interact with. Right? So, like, the fact that her daughter-in-law came from sharing an apartment with her possibly parents and grandparents and that whole idea of, like, we don't all have to have 4 bedrooms, a giant backyard and things.
Crystal Page:In fact, not everybody wants that. You know? And so it's how do we learn from what's working in other cities, what has worked here, what can work here in the future. I really love that you labeled her a futurist because I I think you're right. She definitely sees multiple options for us if we make good and solid decisions for our region.
Grant Oliphant:You know, the the the challenge in a conversation with someone like Mary is, there's so much on the table that it can be daunting to think about it all. But I think what we should be very encouraged about is that we have lots of people, maybe not like Mary because she is a singular person, but we have lots of people working in connected spaces, really leading this community forward in exciting directions. And what I walked away from this conversation feeling is incredibly positive about the future. Is that how you felt?
Crystal Page:A 100%.
Grant Oliphant:Yeah.
Crystal Page:I mean, I just always loved being around Mary. She just has this hope, this bubbling hope and knowledge and connection, but, you know, what I took away is we can do hard things, and San Diego will continue to do hard things. You know?
Grant Oliphant:Yeah. Well, this was terrific, and I I'm really grateful to get to do this with you. You actually asked a fan fantastic question of her when we were off air about who her favorite graduates are, and I thought it was wonderful that she answered the artists and the creators, and and I hope the artists and the creators who are listening will see themselves very much in the picture that we're talking about here. The creativity that happens in San Diego is broadly shared across a whole range of disciplines, and it's a magical thing.
Crystal Page:Excellent work, Grant.
Grant Oliphant:Excellent work, Crystal. Thank you. This is a production of the Prebys Foundation, hosted by Grant Oliphant, and co hosted by Crystal Page. The program is co produced by Crystal Page and Adam Greenfield, and it's engineered by Adam Greenfield. Production assistance is provided by Tess Karesky and our new theme song is by mister Lyrical Groove, a local San Diego artist. Download episodes at your favorite podcatcher or visit us at stop and talk podcast dot org.
Grant Oliphant:If you like this show, and we really hope you do, the best way to support it is to share, subscribe, and review our podcast. Thank you for your support, your ideas, and most of all, for listening. This program has been recorded at The Voice of San Diego Podcast Studio.
