Stop & Talk

Singer 0:00
Stop talk to me.

Grant Oliphant 0:02
Hey Crystal

Crystal Page 0:11
hi grant, how are you?

Grant Oliphant 0:12
I am good, a little nervous though. We're flipping the script today,

Crystal Page 0:16
flipping the script, yes, yeah. You know, I think in this moment in time, there's been so many questions of our foundation, and you're always incredibly thoughtful, so I think it's the right time to sit down with you, hear your thoughts on the foundation, on this work, and you know you kind of have a track record in this work, so we'd love to hear your your thoughts and lessons and how we cope in this moment.

Grant Oliphant 0:39
Great. Well, I appreciate both the compliment and the opportunity. I, you know, I'll own the opportunity in that I do think we're, we're hearing from a lot of folks who want to know how we're thinking about this moment, and it's complicated.

Crystal Page 0:55
Agreed, let's, let's start with the personal though, before we go too deep on all the theories and politics of the moment in our c3 way. You've done this before. You've been a CEO before, you've been a comms director before all the jobs. So you've probably led people through a moment like this before. And I'm just curious, will you tell us a bit about that and and what you learned, or what you carry with you?

Grant Oliphant 1:19
Yeah, you know, one of the things that you realize if you reach the stage of career I'm fortunate to be in, is that cycles come and go. Pendulums swing back and forth. There are moments that are difficult, where changes in air and adjustment feels necessary, and everyone feels different, difficult in its own way. I you know that said, this feels a little unprecedented at the moment, and it would be silly to pretend otherwise. And it and it is its own unique set of circumstances. You know? What I've learned is it's important to talk about it. It's important to communicate what you're thinking about it. I think it's important not, you know, to not pretend that nothing is going on. All of us are looking for honest insights from others about how they're navigating and negotiating difficult moments like this and and so it's important to engage in that.

Crystal Page 2:29
And let me ask you specifically, Grant, because I think you did a great job with the premise staff, as things are shifting, right? But,you know, it's one thing to say the pendulum swings, and I try to comfort myself, Oh, the pendulum is swinging. But day to day, like, are you feeling the depression, the anxiety, anger, happiness, what are you feeling all these moments?

Grant Oliphant 2:50
Yeah, no, I'm looking at what's happening in in terms of the national scene. And you know, you can, everybody has their own list, but cuts to medical research, cuts to health care, cuts to Medicaid and medical the implications that has for poor people, restrictions on speech around climate and health and and race and equity. You know, these are, these are big, powerful shifts that come also with more than a whiff of intimidation and and, and you see that. You see that actually, in the national research, we see that, I think something like 70 plus percent of nonprofit leaders in a recent survey described feeling dispirited and defeated. Everybody who's human engaged in this work, I think feels that way. I certainly feel that way sometimes, you know, I think what I'm also mindful of is that it's really critical not to succumb to that

Crystal Page 3:56
okay, and we know a lot of our listeners or watchers are nonprofits, you know, other fellow CEOs, things like that. So let's switch to the Prebys view of things. What are you seeing as the CEO of Prebys Foundation in this moment? What would you say to nonprofits in this moment?

Grant Oliphant 4:15
Well, that's, that's kind of, hopefully what we're gonna the whole, the whole interview will be about, but I you know, as a place to begin, I would say there is every good reason to feel the way you're feeling in this moment, because there are big stakes on the table at the moment, and we are experiencing a reversal, a stunning reversal, frankly, and national priorities around climate, around healthcare, around impressions on the value and importance of Equity and Diversity, what excellence means in a society like ours, the role of the arts.

Grant Oliphant 5:00
How important it is to be able to speak honestly on and on and on down a list. And you know, so I think, I think people can sometimes feel crazy in an environment like this, because they almost feel as though they're not allowed to talk about it, and you're allowed to talk about it, and you're more than allowed to feel some sense of of anguish and despair over it. So that's, I think that's one thing I would say, you know, I mentioned a moment ago. I would also say that it's important not to succumb to it. And what I mean by that is, there are moments like this in life, you know what? I think if you look back at the at the last 80 years of American history, most of us alive today were lucky enough to have been born in a in a unique period of history where Martin Luther King's statement about the arc of history bending toward Justice felt despite all the imperfections that that was true, and you know, a uniquely long period of relative peace on the international scene, a uniquely long period of relatively stable rational behavior by the major actors on the global stage. And I say that knowing that there were big issues that happened during that time, like, like, like the nuclear arms race and and the subsequent nuclear disarmament movement, but the the general impression was we're moving in the right direction, and history only goes in one direction, to the point that an historian and sociologist named Francis Fukuyama wrote about the end of history like, like it was done, you know, and which, you know, He clearly doesn't feel anymore today. You know. The reality is that history is full of this, where we face challenges and the work encounters reversals, and their differences of opinion, and that, by the way, is is one other thing I would say about about this time, which is that I think we have fallen into pattern as a society in the United States. And it's we can talk about it at length, but it is exacerbated by social media and the online way in which people live their lives now, where they sort into bubbles and, you know, echo chambers, there has been a tendency to believe that if you don't believe exactly The way I believe, then you're a bad person. And it has made the it has built the illusion that there are certain sacrosanct things in in human dialog, and certainly at the level I believe of human rights and civil rights there should be, but there is room for debate, genuine debate, about things like the role of government and the size of government and what it looks like to engage in free speech. And you know, what is the best way to pursue Diversity Equity and Inclusion, and what is the best way to bring about the society that we say we all envision those are conversations that should be happening, not being shut down. And I, you know, I So, I am hopeful that we will all be reminded of that in this moment, too.

Crystal Page 8:34
Yeah, and you brought up diversity, equity, inclusion. You brought up the arc of the universe, all these things, right? It seems like for those, maybe many of us in the nonprofit space, or the foundation space, or even what some folks would call the social justice space, there have been these thoughts around value, the values of diversity, equity and inclusion. So just to ask you point blank, does Prebys stand by those kinds of values?

Grant Oliphant 9:00
We completely stand by that. We completely stand by our focus on belonging. But when I, when I look at the debate that has happened at the national level, do I think that there was no room for criticism or debate about what had come to be labeled in almost a simplistic and well, simplistic way as quote, unquote dei that came to mean very different things to very different people. And it's because, based on your Echo Chamber, people interpreted the term to mean a certain set of things, and that's true on the left, and it's also true on the right. And I think one of the things that we're experiencing now around dei is a complete and utter breakdown over language and what's behind it, but the values should not be-

Grant Oliphant 9:59
In my opinion, should be sacrosanct, and certainly are for us. You know, we have been over the course of the past year, three years. And you know this because in so many ways, you've been the architect of it.

Grant Oliphant 10:13
We have been very conscious of using real language to say what we me and and rather than use the label and just assume that people know what that means. We say diversity, equity and inclusion. We talk about the value of a diverse society. We talk about what what equity means to us in terms of making sure that everybody gets a shot and that this is a place of purpose, opportunity and belonging for everybody in our community. We talk about what inclusion looks like. We did a year long dive into what belonging looks like in a community. And the reason we did that was because we really wanted to convey to people that there is, there is honestly no well intentioned human being alive who doesn't understand the need of other human beings to belong and and, and who can't also understand that if you really view the world through a belonging framework, you recognize that there are moments when you have to deal with in a positive way, with the ways in which people are different. And you know, medicine is a perfect example for us, or medical research is another perfect example. You cannot understand disease today without understanding the different ways in which race and socioeconomics and gender and ethnicity come into play when we're dealing with certain types of diseases and certain types of research, or the role that diverse researchers can play in advancing understanding of how to respond to those, to those challenges.

Grant Oliphant 12:05
And I, you know, I think what we what we have really tried to convey in our in our work, is that we want a community of belonging for everybody. That means we deal honestly with the challenges that exist. We figure out how to make sure that everybody is at the table and included. We fight back against the idea that somehow, any of this means that you're favoring mediocrity, quite the opposite. You know, actually in in our experience when, when we fund this work in the sciences. We get better science and we get it for everybody. We get better scientists overall, and we get it for everybody. We get better healthcare, and we get it for everybody. There's an illusion that has taken root, I think, in recent months, that again, because of the because of what people bring individually to these to these letters, that somehow dei is a trade off with excellence. But when you look at belonging, and you look at the genuine role of diversity, equity and inclusion in addressing social ills, like like medical challenges, excellence begins to morph around the problems themselves. And the best doctor, for example, or the best researcher will be the one who understands what you and your family are up against. They will not be the one, necessarily, who is measured by some objective test on what a perfect doctor is the or a perfect scientist is, because that depends on what they're studying and which aspect of humanity they're trying to understand. So when you know, when you look at all of these problems through the broader lens of the human family and belonging in it, you very quickly begin to appreciate the role of diversity, equity and inclusion. And we do, and we stand by it, but we stand by the very, the very encompassing view that we have of it.

Crystal Page 14:22
Grant you kind of painted the bigger picture for us of what this moment may feel like. And the word that comes to my mind or phrase is seismic shifts, right? So as the leader of a foundation that funds uniquely San Diego nonprofits, what are your concerns in this moment as the head of Prebys Foundation,

Grant Oliphant 14:43
oh, my God, I have so many. I mean, I have concerns about the grantees that we fund, the extraordinary set of organizations that we're privileged to work with in San Diego being harmed in permanent, material ways that also harm San Diego

Grant Oliphant 15:00
you know, we're, we're at risk of that with medical research institutions, with universities,with with healthcare institutions, with arts organizations, with any organization working in the Diversity Equity and Inclusion space, with with organizations that work with vulnerable populations. You know, on on down the list, youth is a big, important issue for us, and we're seeing it with organizations that work with youth, especially if they're working with vulnerable youth and and we're seeing it through the lens of those organizations the impact on the populations they serve. So I'm worried about that. I'm also worried about threats that that I hear being aimed at the nonprofit community, that you know, that they're afraid of being accused of being un-American, or, you know, they're they feel intimidated against being able to speak up on behalf of the very things that they're doing. It's almost as though, overnight, the essence of their mission has been defined, in some cases, as not allowable, and the essence of their mission is to build the pluralistic democracy that that we're all, I think working on behalf of so I worry about that. I worry that that we will, as a result, devalue the important role that nonprofits play in our society.

Crystal Page 16:32
Say more about that.

Grant Oliphant 16:32
Yeah, so,you know, I am not the best student of history, even though that was my major in college, but I, you know,

Grant Oliphant 16:35
I think about what Alexis de Tocqueville wrote in his and he was, of course, was the early the sociologist who wrote, sort of the definitive early history of America. And part of what he said was that the what were then called associations, what we now call nonprofits, were a unique asset in America, and they they expressed this capacity of what he called civil society, to come together around Doing good in a way that government never could, because government would never have the resources or the energy, or really the inclination, but it could allow for that through making room for it, and eventually, later on, through the tax code. And you know, what he appreciated was that nonprofits played this significant role in advancing the good of the country, and in a way, the common identity of the country, that's where our shared identity came from, was that we came together through Civil Society ourselves to participate and engage in the process of building a better Republic. And in that process, became the America that he really admired. You know, one of the things that that you hear quoted often by him, that he said, which I think is is really so important in this context, is that America is great because it is good, and the moment it stops being good, it will stop being great. So what do I really worry about in this moment is that we're beginning to attack the very structure that that really makes America great.

Grant Oliphant 18:44
And, you know, we feel it in our community. Every community has a version of this. You know, I, I, but I, I look at San Diego, and I think outstanding, extraordinary arts and culture scene based on being a border community and having this rich connection with tribal lands, with a unique geography, with sitting on the border and having, you know, the cross cultural pollination that we do that feeds The soul of this place. And you add on top of that, that California and in many ways, San Diego, lead the world in medical research that's through the nonprofit organizations and universities that exist here in San Diego. You know, if we help lead California and California leads the world. Why would anybody want to start undoing that? Similarly with health care, you can say a lot about how broken the health care system is, but it is one of the things we should we should never want to become less mindful of. Is.

Grant Oliphant 19:59
Is giving access to people who are already struggling with poverty and illness and challenges in their everyday lives. Our goal should be to give more access to those folks, not less, because when you take that away, it frays community and it also diminishes the health and vitality of the healthcare institutions that all the rest of us depend on. So over and over and over, I just see how this is playing out to the detriment of the nonprofit community. Unless, you know, unless we can get back to being mindful of the unique role that nonprofits play in this society and in advancing its goals.

Crystal Page 20:47
Okay, I want to break that down a little bit sure, because first of all, to Tocqueville, I had to write a paper on him in 10th grade. English Grant. You're killing me because

Grant Oliphant 20:54
Taking you back to high school, I don't know about that

Crystal Page 20:56
15 year old crystals like, What is this man saying as I'm trying to write paper, and, you know, you learn over time, but I, but I want to break it down for those who maybe don't read that kind of stuff. And I really want to understand, because we, you know, as NPI, the nonprofit Institute, has put out this survey that's talking about a, you know, a third of the grant funding may be gone because of federal cuts and things, right? They're struggling. They're feeling dispirited, as you said. But some of the YouTube comments, my colleague Tess and I took some time to look at those, there were mentions of if the work's still good, it doesn't matter, they can continue on with their work. So that's, I think, misnomer number one, so we're gonna start there. But number two was, half of you are fraudulent anyway, so we don't need these nonprofits. So what would you say to those types of critiques?

Grant Oliphant 21:43
So nonprofits still remain in our society, the most trusted institutions in America, and I think it's tragic when people deliberately try to tear that apart, and it expresses more about them than it does about the nonprofit community. Does the nonprofit community behave chaotically, sometimes, sure, it's a it's a wide open market. It is the product of of 10s of 1000s upon 1000s of of people and donors who come together to form organizations and have them pursue noble social goals. But as as as Tocqueville pointed out, the sum total is, is that you get something that's kind of unique to this country and is an engine of social cohesion. It is, it is. But I'll so I see. Let me break it down, though further in terms of what you you know, the YouTube comments. You mentioned you and I were talking about this, and I've got a blog coming out about this shortly.

Grant Oliphant 22:49
Martin Luther King, Jr, appropriately said that a budget is a moral document, and every time we go through the exercise as a country of slashing and burning whole areas of our budget, we need to be mindful of what that expresses in terms of who is important in our society, what we think is important in our society, and how we stand with or against each other, and so part of what I would say is, is there room for cutting budgets? Of course, that has to happen periodically. Is there room for revisiting the size and role of government? Absolutely. Should we in doing so, be very mindful of the impact that has on the citizens of the country and of the organizations that serve them in unique ways that government can't Yes, and anybody who thinks that they don't matter, that they're all corrupt, is basically indicting every church, every religious institution, every school, every charter school that exists in the private realm, every food bank, every organization that provides young People or older people with shelter or access to health care. They're indicting every institution of higher learning. They're indicting every institution that does the research that keeps them healthy in I mean, basically it's a blanket indictment of the caring sector of American society, and it's simply wrong, profoundly wrong, to characterize that in a negative way. Does it get it right all the time? No, but it gets it right more of the time than I would argue any other sector of American society does.

Crystal Page 24:58
Yeah,and that seems to align. Line with the recent surveys that basically still say nonprofit organizations are more trusted than government than pretty much any other organization that exists right now. Is that? Is that pretty accurate?

Grant Oliphant 25:12
That is true. I mean, the scary thing about this is we are living in an era when it is easy over time, if you really do it over time, to tear down trust for any institution. And we've seen it in a concerted approach to tearing down faith in journalism as an institution. We've seen it in tearing down faith in institutions of higher education as institutions. We've seen it definitely in tearing down faith in government as an institution. And you know, it's frightening when you think that now those guns are being trained on the nonprofit sector next. What's left at that point? you know, what do we as a as a society, believe in at that point. What you heard on Facebook? What you heard on what you the video you saw on Tiktok? because some guy said so, and it's the people you happen To identify with that's tragic, and there's ultimately no good that can come from that. You know, should we all want to learn from you and different sources of information, sure, but really, if you look at a lot of this tearing down that has happened, well, I'll take government as an example, this almost gleeful disassembly of government that we're seeing in some you know, and some people celebrate. First of all, targets and vilifies government workers, who, for the most part, are good people in all of our communities, who go to work each day in Public Service because they partly are doing a good job, and because they they think they're advancing the interests of their community and their fellow Americans, and that is the motivation and the nature of the work for the vast majority of government workers. They do not deserve to be vilified as though they're doing something wrong, and that's the language that gets used. Similarly with government at a larger level, you know, again, I don't side with those who think that there should be no debate about the size of government or the role of government. I think that is baked into our model. It should happen periodically. There will be resets, and, God forbid, there should be an orthodoxy about the one right way to do it, because that's not what we are as a country. And when I look at the role of government in our society, the criticism starts with one small agency, and then it quickly morphs into a criticism of entire government programs upon which 10s of millions of Americans rely, such as Social Security and Medicare. And you know anybody who thinks that you can stop unraveling this ball of yarn just by hating on one part and not disassembling the rest, hasn't been paying attention. And I, you know, I think that my counter to those arguments is pay attention, unless you don't care about any of the fabric that ties this country together and you want to return to some mythical Ann Randian universe where great heroes defined everything good that the country did, and the rest of us just depended on that and their largesse basically the rule of billionaires. We are. We're supposed to be more than that, and we are more than that. So I simply don't accept the criticism.

Crystal Page 29:03
We've been watching these federal cuts. We've been hearing from nonprofit leaders, but we haven't completely weighed in yet. Grant. So will you talk about what is our perspective as Prebys foundation on these cuts, and what type of actions we might take?

Grant Oliphant 29:16
You know, it's interesting. We had, we happened to have a webinar with nearly 500 grantees the day after the federal freeze was first announced, and what I said in the context of answering our grantees questions then was that it wasn't clear what the right response was or what a foundation could do in this environment, and I but that we were very clear on our values and that we were going to adhere to our values, and that we that we remained committed, for example, to promoting purpose, opportunity and belonging and and to the work that we've been engaged in, in making this a dynamic, equitable and inclusive community for all San Diegans. You know, I, I think, I think there has the foundation community more broadly, has has struggled with how to respond, because beyond that sort of statement, it's not clear what to do in a moment of such seismic change, and

Grant Oliphant 30:27
I think you know for our part, what we know is that the nonprofit community in San Diego does need voices like ours to stand with them and stand by them and make it clear that their work matters and that they are valuable, and that they are playing a unique role in this community, and that they are worth defending and fighting for. So we do that. We're going to do that. I think that there are very practical questions that come into play like What different funding decisions do you make as a foundation? And I'm gonna, I'm gonna give a couple of answers to this. One is, it is, it is really important to be clear that philanthropy in all of America, with all its resources, can't begin to make a dent in stepping in to fill the gap that government would leave as it pulls away from these social obligations. So we're not going to pretend that we can. We're not going to pretend that we have money that we don't have. So instead, what we can do and should do is get very granular in terms of what nonprofits tell us that they need and have in common. What does that look like? It looks like having access to advocacy that stands up for them, having access to legal aid so that they can protect their legal rights, being able to get technical assistance for how to deal with very practical problems that arise in an environment where there's retrenchment and significant budget pullbacks, working with them on new collaborative opportunities and trying to bring together new coalitions that that help build the case for their work in the future. So we're looking at all of those things and and at the same time, you know, I guess my the other part of my answer to this is we all have to keep our eye on the long view. And the work of a foundation is in part to respond to a crisis like this. It's also to stay committed to the work we're doing over the long haul. So we've we were working yesterday on addressing pollution in the Tijuana River Valley. We're going to continue working on that. We were working yesterday on on helping San Diego embrace a bold new vision of its own future through projects like reinventing the downtown and the Civic Center. We're going to stay concentrated on that. We were talking yesterday about using the entirety of our corpus to advance the impact and the mission, and we launched a VC fund to do that, and we're looking at other we're going to continue to do that. It is important, because so much of what's happening right now is happening right now, that we stay the course on the long term objectives that will ultimately lift San Diego up, lift community up, and help us be a better place.

Crystal Page 33:53
And I think that's helpful to know the long term vision, whether it's civic revitalization or Tijuana River Valley. I think that makes a ton of sense. I guess, where I'm curious is knowing in this moment that some folks will lose 10, 20% 30% of some of their federal funding, or they've had to change words. We know. We know some folks have had to scrub their websites because there are words and terminology that this federal administration does not welcome. What would you say to those nonprofits in this moment, and how, if at all, do we plan to support them?

Grant Oliphant 34:27
Well,those are two profound questions rather than one. So let me, let me deal with the budget question first and then the language issue, because I think it gets at a different challenge. So the budget issue is an insurmountable one for us, and that's that's why I say that foundations have to be We cannot and do not want to send the signal that we can replace what is being lost, you know, and I think in one day after the. Freeze happened, and you and I talked about this that day, we had people come through our office who, just in a in a few short meetings, had lost more, more than 50 plus million dollars in or or were at great risk of losing that money. That's the entire grant making of the foundation for an entire year so and that was just that was a tiny handful of of organizations. So what we have to do there, I think, is help them adapt. Help them state their case, to get those resources back. Help them defend themselves against spurious challenges and accusations that are wrong, and help them stand up for the people that they're fighting for. So all of those things we can figure out how to do, but not in the not in the sense of just filling the hole that has been created in the bucket. The language issue is a profound moral one, but it's also a profound practical one. So many organizations are, you know, let's call it what it is, they are being coerced into abandoning language that they use to describe their work or aspects of their work. So this, you know, this gets sort of glossed over in the media as dei but that may mean the word diversity gets expunged. It may mean that the word Black gets expunged. It may mean the this ridiculous example that arose the other day of a photo of the Enola Gay being removed by the Defense Department because it had the word gay in it when the bomber that dropped the first bomb in Hiroshima. And it's it's crazy to imagine that sort of coercion being applied to effectively censorship. We shouldn't have censorship like that. So the question is, you know what? What do we say to organizations that are being forced to deal with this? And here I want to, I just want to note a sound of sound, a note of caution for foundations. It is really easy for us to sit on our high horse and say, Oh, nobody should compromise with making these changes when you're an institution who's 70% of 80% of your budget comes from federal funding in the medical research space, for example, or when Your entire reason for being a top tier research university depends on federal resources from NIH, you're going to have to think through the implications of any choice in in complex moral terms. So that means thinking through the implications on the people who work for you, thinking through the implications for the research you're doing, thinking through what it means for the families that depend on your institution, thinking through what it means. So it is not as though these are easy, easy issues for organizations to deal with, and what we're trying to do in our conversations with grantees is to surface the issues in a way that just makes them transparent in discussion without necessarily judging the ways in which they have to respond.

Crystal Page 38:36
Okay, so what I think I'm hearing you say is these executive directors, nonprofit CEOs, whoever they are, are trying to keep the lights on while trying to manage what feels like maybe a changing of the game, a changing of the rules, while providing whatever service they do to the people of San Diego County. How is previs supporting those leaders in those kind of fine line balance and decisions. Are there things you see that we can do to really help them?

Grant Oliphant 39:07
You know, the first, the first thing we can do is is sit with them and acknowledge the complexity of it. The second thing we can do is not cast aspersions or easy judgments at them if, even if we don't agree with what they're doing. And by the way, I I have talked to people who are on the front lines of many social justice issues, but who also run programs that they will not be able to run if, if they lose the funding for them, and so understanding that complexity is important, and continuing to have the discussion about how we cannot, in changing language, erase people. You know, I think this is the thing that comes up for me, and that I've seen us in. Turn on a dime into where, yeah, term terminology is getting erased, and there's been good reporting on that in some places. But what's behind the terminology is people and so, you know, eliminating the word gay, what it means is that gay people are disappearing, and their issues are disappearing, getting rid of the word trans. Suddenly, trans people and trans kids are disappearing, and then the step beyond disappearing is that they get vilified and targeted. And I think, I think everybody working in the sector, no matter what they have at stake, needs to understand how the steps they take to keep the lights on don't ultimately lead to that perverse result.

Crystal Page 40:54
Wow. Thank you. I think that's a very important note to bring out that decisions we make don't contribute to the erasure of people like I know that the National Park took the T off of the LGBTQ, and it's funny, you can erase that. We're all still here, whether we're trans, gay, whether we're immigrants, whatever, we're all still here, right? And so I think what you're saying, you're acknowledging that we're seeing folks and I think that's incredibly powerful. We're seeing the ratio of LGBTQ migrants funding of things like cancer research. What would you say are some of the stories that you've heard thus far that have really stuck with you, whether they're from you know, when you go to lunch with folks or just something, you've read

Grant Oliphant 41:36
great question. And I want to be careful, because I don't not received permission from anybody to talk about their stories. But I've, I've heard such a range of of examples. You know, I've, I've heard of of people, of organizations because they ran an immigration or refugee program, being investigated or potentially investigated by the government for UN American Activities, which harkens back to the worst days of McCarthyism. Big organization, great organization, does really fantastic work for the broader community. Comes at it from a religious perspective, and in no way deserves that sort of attack or scrutiny. I've heard about researchers who were blessed to come into the medical research and sciences profession through programs that reached out to them across language and cultural barriers, being told that those programs are suddenly going away because they're not allowed anymore, even though those people are doing work that is increasing cure rates in significant cancers for children. You know, when you play these, these implications out, it can be mind numbingly crazy making if those two things can go together. But the, you know, I've heard, I've heard of organizations who's, you know, known primarily for speaking up for vulnerable populations and diverse populations in our community, but who also run housing and and food well food and shelter programs and mental wellness programs, all of which are on the chopping block all of a sudden. And that isn't about programs, that's about people. All of these things are about people. We're saying, you know, the risk is that we're making people unacceptable, not that we're changing practices. It's that we're making people unacceptable, and I think that's an area where we really have to be conscious of what's going on.

Crystal Page 44:07
Yeah, and to really drive home what you're saying in terms of making people unacceptable, I feel like one of the best things about San Diego is how we all try to help each other for the most part. You know, whether it's a flood or just a car accident, you know, people will hop out of the car and help each other. These nonprofits are based on that same theory, right? Connecting, seeing the value of whoever calls this home. And so I guess I'm curious grant I'm thinking about. So we've talked about the economic like, the economic impact on the nonprofits, right? We've talked about mental but you started to mention mental health and well being. So it seems like this moment in time with an administration that, as as you've reminded me earlier today, has is taking a chainsaw to things right like, what do you think that does for the the well being of our non profit infrastructure, for the well being of the staff, those type of things?

Grant Oliphant 44:59
It's a rhetorical. Question, look, I think this is This has profound consequences. And the surveys that we've seen the nonprofit Institute, one that we were part of commissioning and looking at this problem in San Diego and and national surveys that we've seen, people are really feeling challenged and depressed. And you know, the word dispirited carries the air of depression around it. People lose hope when they feel dispirited. And I think we're seeing that. I also see a lot of hope, by the way, and I want to be very careful about not overstating this. I see a lot of Resolute thinking. I see a lot of determination, fierceness, willingness to stay engaged. And I see all of that, but we are definitely seeing in this moment, people feeling under attack, under duress, not sure what to do, not sure what the future is going to be for the work that they do or the people that they work with. And that's scary, unsettling and depressing. So that's playing out as you would expect. You know, I think that this is another area that, again, where what we can do is be mindful of that be supportive of what leaders need. But in some ways, this is a healthy, normal reaction to a an unusual set of circumstances.

Crystal Page 46:31
Okay? And I have a feeling, part of the curiosity from the nonprofits that we work with, beyond the curiosities of the moment. You know, what is previs doing? I know we can't get ahead. We're going to engage with our board to better understand how to respond in this moment some of our plans. But what are our next steps and what? What should nonprofits be looking out to hear from us?

Grant Oliphant 46:54
Yeah.

Grant Oliphant 46:56
So again, you know, I touched on this earlier crystal, but I would, I want to be very careful about this question, because this question implies that there is a foundation answer to solve everything, and there isn't, you know, I, I, I think part of moral leadership in challenging moments is that you have to understand, you have to exercise it when you have power, and you have to exercise it When you don't. And you have to be clear that neither of those is a fixed state. And you have to understand that sometimes you're in the one and sometimes you're in the other. People like to think of foundations as immensely powerful organizations. They're tiny in so many respects, not compared to some of the organizations we fund, but in terms of the broad scope of American society. And I say all of that because I don't want to over promise, and I don't want to imply that, oh, we've got a brilliant answer. What we have is a set of tools that we can bring into play, and that we are beginning to bring into play that have to do with helping organ Well, first of all, being candid about the challenges as we see them, standing alongside organizations, by speaking up for them and saying that they are valuable, that they matter, that the people they serve matter, that we we believe that this that their continued survival and role is critical to American society and the future of this country and and and obviously San Diego. So we can do that. We can lean in with technical assistance and resources to help organizations navigate sudden shocks to their their budgets that they're really not equipped to survive otherwise or not, not clear on how they will survive, and to look at, perhaps new models or different ways of responding to challenges. So we can do that. We can, as you know, as I mentioned before, look at new alliances and collaborations. We can look at vehicles for advocacy, because this is, you know, this is a long again. This is a long term fight. And in the long term, we want our nonprofit community to prosper. So the question is, how we help them get through this period, and then how we build that longer term, healthier future? So we're trying to think about the resources and tools we can make available, but it is never going to look like an, you know, a comprehensive solution, because the found the foundation community, even with all the philanthropic resources in America, can't, is not in a position to provide that. I would add that we, you know, we overspend our 5% minimum. That's a tool that I hear foundations talking about. I Great. I don't think that small amount of money is actually the solution there. To be a more strategic response around these, these tools and this advocacy and this being a fellow traveler around the issues, and I think we can certainly, hopefully all in this field, look at aligning our investments with our mission, and at a minimum, doing no harm and hopefully doing more, hopefully doing more to advance the cause, but at the end of the day, what is going to matter is how forceful we are in standing up for the things we believe in, and how smart we are in using the resources we do have to help the large nonprofit community navigate this time.

Crystal Page 50:45
Thank you. I think that's really helpful for us to understand. I did want to go back to the 5% piece, so just so folks at home understand that is like the minimum requirement of tax code is like, foundations need to spend 50% aggregated over three years

Grant Oliphant 50:59
and there's the there's a whole methodology and history behind this. If you look at the the management of an endowment, and you have to pay out a certain amount of per year, and you want to keep the the amount of that endowment whole over time, and you want and including with inflation, then you you basically have to be able to make seven or 8% per year every year, and pay out 5% in in order to keep managing a resource for the for for all time in premises, case in San Diego, we want this to be a resource for the long term future of San Diego. But we did make a decision early on that we would overspend our 5% because we just thought it was an obligation of a new foundation and and we'll see. We'll see how that plays out. But lots of foundations, I think, are beginning to look at how their money comes into play, but I am not going to judge the ones who stay at 5% because I actually don't, you know, I think evidencing commitment to the nonprofit sector can be done in a whole variety of ways, and it's more important that they be responding with care to their nonprofit communities than that They do some flash in the pan thing, like declaring, you know, that, because it's the, it's the flavor du jour,

Crystal Page 52:27
yeah, and let me ask you, because we have had a couple of questions on social media or phone calls about, if I'm, you know, a typical community member and I want to support these nonprofits, what can I do? What would you say to to those inquirers?

Grant Oliphant 52:40
Yeah, you know, I wish we had a central clearing house in San Diego for that. But what I would say is call those nonprofits and call the ones you care about and ask them how you can help. Obviously, donations help that's important. And voting, voting with your personal wallet is is a key way of doing this scary to do. I know when the stock market is as volatile as it is, and and the business and the and commercial sector feel as volatile as they do, but it is. It's important that people support these organizations in material ways. I also think volunteering can you know, if you call these organizations and volunteer to your time or your talent, you know, some knowledge or wisdom that you have that can be helpful to organizations? Finally, I'd say just writing letters of support for them and their mission, letting public officials know that nonprofits matter, letting public officials and and the nonprofit leaders themselves know that you appreciate the work that they're doing. Social media is by nature, designed to deliver the bad news. It is designed to, to deliver the negativity. So don't be that, you know, be a force for that that counters that. I'm probably showing my age by saying, write a letter. No, no, no. I think that. I think that that has real value to people. But even a positive comment on social media is a good thing, and the more, the more good people can hear from each other that that this work of doing good in America still matters to them. I think that that is really supportive at a time when these organizations are feeling so bereft,

Crystal Page 54:37
thank you, and we're winding down so but I do have one final question for you, because I think you're a very strong leader. Not saying this to blow smoke. I'm saying it because I think it's true. But I'm curious in moments like these, right? You talked about the pendulum swinging at the different organizations you've been at, but I'm curious in this moment, how do you pour into yourself so you can continue to do. Do the good work, because I'm thinking about that executive director that has a team of three right or the the nonprofit that's going back and forth across the border to help people. So how do you pour into yourself, or what advice or guidance would you give to those who might be struggling in this moment?

Grant Oliphant 55:17
Two questions again, yeah, no, no, but they're they're really connected. You know, I so let me, let me say crystal that in answering this, I'm blessed, you know, I this is a fantastic organization, and the seat I sit in and the challenges I face are different from the folks that you just described. But I, you know, I think about that a lot, and I, I do think that one of the things we can do is tap into why we're doing the work in the first place. And you know, what was it that attracted us to it? Why do we think it matters? Does it matter even when it's under attack? It probably matters more. Does it matter? Even when resources are being taken away, it probably matters more so remembering the the why? You know, Simon Sinek has this famous TED Talk that maybe it's a good time to go back and watch that, and just keeping ask, asking yourself the question, why and why and why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? And what you get to eventually is because I really believe in it, and I really believe it matters. So that's one thing.

Grant Oliphant 56:30
I think look for allies. Look for fellow travelers. One of the things that leaders don't do enough in an environment like this, because they're so focused on the everyday, the incoming, the keeping the lights on that they don't get together and ask for help. You know, there are loads of opportunity to do this in the business sector, and less so in the nonprofit sector, and especially less so in circumstances like the ones we're experiencing now, but creating those moments and those alliances where you can reach out to another executive director, or a group of them and and asking, or asking a funder to help convene a group so that there is a conversation, I think that's powerful. I think having the Grace to You know, with yourself to I was reading something that that Mary Oliver wrote this morning that, and I I'm going to get this quote wrong, but it was along the lines of, when are you going to be kind to the soft things that walk the earth, including yourself and and allowing yourself to feel challenge and pain and stupid and inadequate and all the things that is that's important too.

Grant Oliphant 57:51
And then the last thing I'd say is, you know, if, after all of that, especially coming back to the why, remembering that the most true statement in all of human history is this, too shall pass. So how do you want to help that next stage set up? And how do you want to make that next phase when the pendulum swings, if the pendulum doesn't swing off its axis? In the meantime, you know, how do you how do you want to help set that up and and and having some getting back in touch with the determination yourself to make that happen. I believe, I really believe, that we are in these, you know, when we're in these seats, in these moments, it is because we are being called upon to deliver something and and we may never know what that was, but we know, if we're connected with the why, where we hope it will lead. And so I would just invite people to reconnect with that.

Crystal Page 59:00
Thank you. I just want to thank you for being open with us today, for being willing to flip the script and share your insights,

Grant Oliphant 59:08
your tough interview. I i, but I Well, thank you for for doing this and and you know, I will, I will end my portion of this by saying, I wish there was a magical answer, and I wish there were, but I am. I do think the magical answer is all of us doing this work. I you know, I think the people who are watching this or listening to this, they still can't get over the fact that people watch podcasts. But you know that the The answer lies with us and and it is so important that we be clear on what's going on, that we be clear on on responding in a humane and principled way, and that we support each other in the work we'll get there.

Crystal Page 59:57
Thank you again, Grant, we've heard you talk about. Prebys' role, you know, uplift the nonprofits. And just on behalf of stop and talk, we encourage nonprofits to to reach out if they need support in the form of community. Stay strong in this moment, because, as grant just reminded us, this too shall pass. Thank you for listening in today or watching today, and have a great one.

Grant Oliphant 1:00:19
Thank you, Crystal.

Crystal Page 1:00:19
Thank you, Grant.

Grant Oliphant 1:00:26
This is a production of the Prebys Foundation,

Crystal Page 1:00:29
hosted by Grant Oliphant

Grant Oliphant 1:00:32
co hosted by Crystal Page

Crystal Page 1:00:35
Co produced by Crystal page and Adam Greenfield,

Grant Oliphant 1:00:39
engineered by Adam Greenfield.

Crystal Page 1:00:42
Production coordination by Tess Karesky.

Grant Oliphant 1:00:45
Video production by Edgar Ontiveros Medina,

Crystal Page 1:00:49
special thanks to the Prebys Foundation team.

Grant Oliphant 1:00:52
The stop and talk theme song was created by San Diego's own Mr. Lyrical groove.

Crystal Page 1:00:58
Download episodes at your favorite podcatcher, or visit us at prebysfdn.org.